Paladin DPS

[stope21]

I would like to lobby for paladins to receive a better dps stance.

Comparing the 3 tanks, paladins have always been the lowest dps on all mobs except undead.

Lets take a look at the 3 classes:
Warriors: Flurry (chance at 2 additional attack rounds from main hand), innate crits, an offensive stance that allows them to attack VERY fast, although it does drain stamina. Weapon skills cap at the highest of the tanks, 250.

Shadowknights: Spears, lifetaps, DoTS. These spells are not large and can be resisted. However, an sk using only lifetaps between swings from a weapon loses little to no melee dps and gains a lot of spell damage, and that is at a -200 resist check. He can throw his spears in ontop when applicable to increase his damage even more (at no loss in melee dps too). Furthermore, HT/Leech touch for a quick burst every ~36 minutes. Weapon skills cap at 245.

Paladins: Innate crits. They do have stance 5, but I hate to say I have noticed no substantial effect in terms of +dps from using over stance. Weapon skills caps at 245.

The breakdown:
Paladin vs Warrior: No flurry, no awesome stance, lower skill caps (imbalance should be pretty obvious).
Paladin vs SK: Innate crits vs all their spells and HTs as the icing (again, imbalance should be pretty obvious).

My suggestion: change s5 to be a long duration (8 minutes or so) highly offensive stance.

 

[Miffy]

Since it is my understanding that paladins are meant to be the most dps of all the tanks I completely agree with this. Right now they are the worst tanks of the three, in terms of mitigation and avoidance, less melee dps potential than warriors and none of the spell dps of shadowknights. As it stands /s 5 is worse than using /s 2 except maybe versus undead because 10% haste means 10% more dps on any mob and it works with enchanter curse unlike /s 5, which also drains stamina at a decent rate. I am wondering what you have in mind stope when you say "highly offensive stance" ? I am thinking something like the rogue /s 6 (increased accuracy and damage) or a hefty overhaste in either case paired with something like a 50% agression penalty and or a decent avoidance penalty. In otherwords something that is powerful enough to be worth using over /s 2 but has enough negative effects on tanking to make it clearly a tool for dealing dps.

 

[GuiardoTuneweaver]

If you're comparing DPS between paladins and warriors, you also need to mention the weapons available to the classes. Yes warriors get dual wield and flurry (which although I don't have parsing stats, doesn't go off all that much), but knights get weapons with MUCH better ratios than warriors have available to them. I don't know how any of this puts them in DPS comparison to each other, but weapons are certainly part of the equation.

Also, it wasn't my understanding that Paladins were supposed to be better DPS than warriors (than SKs yes). I could certainly be wrong, but I don't recall seeing an authoritative statement regarding those two classes on the subject.

 

[blahmookow]

I have to disagree here, Paladins serve an innate roll in a group but by no means should they be kings of DPS on the tank side. Paladins with their ability to LoH, self buff, heal, as well as just a standard "aura" about them that makes everyone around them better.

All the tanks have a purpose in the game. Paladins and SK's have some of the best 1h weapons available in the game, almost sickening if you look at them. SK's can snare/DoT/LifeTap, Paladins can nuke,heal,self buff. Warriors can do none of the above except mitigate and deal damage.

There is a balance created so that all classes have a reason to be played, if Paladins and SK's could tank as well and had all of their other innate capabilities, no one would play a warrior.

Just my 2c

Draxle

 

[Rorne]

Sure, they can just change /s 4 to a DPS stance.

But seriously, how can you compare straight DPS with a class like warriors when it is balanced against the sum of your abilities (ie: healing and buffing as well). Of course they're going to out DPS you in pure melee.

At the end of the day you're still a tank class, your role is to take damage. While lore on the server dictates that you're a more offensive tank you can't expect that to override the game design (such as shadowknight spells being primarily offensive and paladin being defensive) so comparing the two in terms of damage is silly. That being said I see no reason why you shouldn't have your weapon skills bumped to 250, though.

 

[Salarus]

Paladins with their ability to LoH, self buff, heal, as well as just a standard "aura" about them that makes everyone around them better.

What is this aura you speak of that makes paladins better? Quite possibly are you reffering to the group wide undead cleansing blow chance, because thats all I could really think of, and obviously that's incredibly situational. Also, when taken into perspective on the raid scene, all we really get is SSS as a buff that's useful, now don't get me wrong here, I love SSS i'm just trying to point this out to blahmow.

As per dps, i'm pretty sure I remeber Wiz saying something a couple years back about paladins being a dps style tanking class. Now, I could be mistaken as that was awhile ago, but I had that impression also. If this IS this case, yea, we definatly need a bump in dps, maybe through a stance like stope sugested, as that would improve the role of our class as an aux tank on raids, or at least it does according to my limited understanding of how aux tanking works (which is the more damage you deal from the front via melee, the more effective you are at aux tanking (please correct me if i'm wrong)). However, if this is NOT the case, then i've got to ask, why exactly are warriors, who by now are by FAR the kings of tanking (as it should be) also the kings of dps for the tank classes? That doesn't make too much sense to me. Let's look at it this way...

Warriors: Are by far the best tanks via mitigation and overall HP, they are without a doubt your meat shield.

Shadowknights: Have aggro which cannot be resisted, the ability to pull fairely well, the ability to buff the tank (usualy the warrior) with a nice aggro buff, taps, dots etc, have fearless.

Paladins: Get SSS which is nice for a little extra HP over SV despite the loss in atk, get G HoT's which can be useful, but really a clerics are better and they don't heal for all that much, have fearless.

Due to this makeup, my understanding is paladins or shadowknights should be tanking mobs that fear most of the time, which really, after the first couple tiers I haven't found too many. Some dragons, a couple in PoN, a certain trial in PoV, and that's really all I can get off the top of my head. Point being, there really arn't that many. Because of this, the roles I usualy see, is shadowknights assisiting in pulling, tagging to be safe sometimes, aux tanking, picking up 1 or 2 adds if needed. and picking up aggro if your warrior eats it. For paladins, we cast SSS once every couple hours, use G HoT's very situationally (usually as a damper pre G Heal, only used of course if the clerics arn't using their superior G HoT's already) picking up 1 or 2 adds if needed (or a fwe weaker ones for the few fights where there are any) aux tank and pick up the mob if the warrior eats it.

So honestly, in both knight classes it is apparent that the vast majority of the time on raids, our job is going to be aux tanking, with limited dps. Since this the case, I really think that BOTH shadowknights (even though they have the ability to pull) and paladins should have an increase to their dps. As I mentioned earlier, I like the idea of a stance for paladins, but maybe even a change in weapon progression for knights only would be possible.

 

[Kazimir]

Honestly i think maxed out pally hots are one of the most useful spells in the game. With a pally in your tank grp you reduce the number healers required on the MT along with having a grp that rarely needs grp heals. I have to say pallys that don't keep up their hot are fairly bad during most raid situations. This allows the stacking of 1 more dps and thus a lesser raid force can take down the same mob.

 

[Aluadon]

Paladins help with healing during mobs with heavy AE damage. Druids or clerics that are doing group heals with a pally doing these group hots, they have to do less group heals if any saving mana for the healing of the MT.

 

[Vartenaal]

even though id love for paladins to deal more DPS, i have to disagree. paladins do more dps than warriors - this i have seen in all parses that have been done from the CoD times when i was using hammer of warding against ratkon's 2 1handers. and this is with 2hs and without. the gap in dps was quite substantial (60+).

group HoTs are AWESOME. especially if you have good HI/aa/tomes, i find myself being able to outheal most AEs in ToT, or at least being able to slow them down enough so that the healer has to toss a group heal like 3 times a fight.

cant say much about paladin dps vs SK dps, except the stuff that was told to me by eleonor at CoD raiding tier time - he said he could get up to about 400 dps with spells, how believable that is i dont know - would have to wait for other SKs to confirm. i average out at about 200-225 dps at raids with my weapons - antideluvian/sanguis regina.

ps WTB longer duration on the anger-inciting /s 4

 

[Renshu]

I'd say that a paladin with a DS does a shit ton of DPS in an exp group (I know this is situational).

 

[Elaith]

Found something interesting but from 2 years ago, is it still the case?

http://www.shardsofdalaya.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7627&highlight=paladin+hander

*from Wiz*
Here's the deal. In terms of lore, the dark evil SK should not the main damage dealer, because Paladins and SKs aren't really manifestations of good/evil as much as they are manifestations of their deities. Shadowknights derive their powers from Marlow, whose strength lies in manipulation, trickery and careful progress (so they manipulate aggro, fear, mez and tank better) while Paladins worship Althuna who uses a direct approach to anything (so they heal the wounded, raise the dead and unleash holy fury on the sinners).

In terms of game mechanics, there quite simply isn't room for 3 "low damage, high tanking" classes in the game. Most of the raid game is about DPS, and with their useful support + useful DPS + useful tanking the Paladin will be more reminiscent of the Monk/Ranger classes, and generally never be superfluous on a raid.

I am going to look into ways to create more need for tanks in general, and look over SK aggro, but Paladins are SUPPOSED to deal more damage than Shadowknights and Warriors now - deal with it.
*end*

The last paragraph - a solid statement. So warriors are out-dps'ing paladins now?

 

[Mythryn]

Based on certain parses I've seen, and the recent Paladin tanking nerfs, I completely agree that Paladins need more DPS options. People have said so since the changes (Paladins being the DPS tanks) were mentioned, but everything was ignored. The staff just slapped on some innate crits and such and said 'Oh hey, you're better DPS now' when it just wasn't true. Give Paladins some DPS spells (expand the Flame of Light line, improve their self proc buffs) and a decent DPS stance.

 

[stope21]

If you're comparing DPS between paladins and warriors, you also need to mention the weapons available to the classes. Yes warriors get dual wield and flurry (which although I don't have parsing stats, doesn't go off all that much), but knights get weapons with MUCH better ratios than warriors have available to them. I don't know how any of this puts them in DPS comparison to each other, but weapons are certainly part of the equation.

Also, it wasn't my understanding that Paladins were supposed to be better DPS than warriors (than SKs yes). I could certainly be wrong, but I don't recall seeing an authoritative statement regarding those two classes on the subject.

Lower teir 2her's out dps (in every one of my parses) knight 1hers. I parsed my sanguis at about 3-4% higher dps on ringo w/o the dot component affecting dps than my varisath w/ its proc contributing to dps. So, no, knights do not get better weapons - warriors can wield every 2her a knight can. I agree weapons are part of the equation, but they're significance is a 0 value thus eliminating their contribution to the equation. Furthermore, a knight loses when they pull agro w/ a 2her in because their tanking ability is balanced around always using a shield while a warrior loses little in terms of tanking when they have their 2her in.


To miffane: This is something that would drain your stamina, so you'd be penalized in terms of tanking when using this. Yes, your ideas are pretty much exactly what I was thinking. Not that our tanking stance that drains stamina makes much of a difference in fights now anyways, but that is off topic.

The last paragraph - a solid statement. So warriors are out-dps'ing paladins now?

They always have had the ability, however most players on this server don't fully consider all their abilities and ways they can use them together. Thus, it has gone largely unrealized.

 

[Budizzle]

Lets take a look at the 3 classes:
Warriors: an offensive stance that allows them to attack VERY fast, although it does drain stamina.

They always have had the ability, however most players on this server don't fully consider all their abilities and ways they can use them together. Thus, it has gone largely unrealized.

I agree that paladin dps needs to be increased in some fashion. But you are either intentionally leaving out the detail about /s 10 being worthless or you're just ignorant. While in /s 10 a warrior will take roughly twice as much damage as they would in normal stance. Unless we're talking about mobs that hit for very little (ie: DN rats), this stance is completely worthless. Even then it's pretty dubious since it's a huge stamina hog.

Don't sling me diatribe about not knowing how to "utilize my class" in response. Save it.

 

[GuiardoTuneweaver]

while a warrior loses little in terms of tanking when they have their 2her in.

Tanking matters little without aggro. syduck:

 

[Miffy]

Holy fury only works on some mobs, and is there even a way to tell which mobs are evil/neutral for sure? SK have similar thing for humanoids and at least usually you can guess what things are humanoid lol.

 

[Miffy]

Tanking matters little without aggro. syduck:

Wasnt the whole point of the agro changes that better ratio = better agro to a much larger extent now? Hence tanking with a two hander should be possible even for a warrior.

 

[Rorne]

Wasnt the whole point of the agro changes that better ratio = better agro to a much larger extent now? Hence tanking with a two hander should be possible even for a warrior.

Are you seriously arguing this angle?

 

[metvayne1]

This was explained in another thread by Gunder. You get a base aggro amount of each weapon, so in all cases 2 1handers would be greater aggro than 1 2hander.

 

[stope21]

I agree that paladin dps needs to be increased in some fashion. But you are either intentionally leaving out the detail about /s 10 being worthless or you're just ignorant. While in /s 10 a warrior will take roughly twice as much damage as they would in normal stance. Unless we're talking about mobs that hit for very little (ie: DN rats), this stance is completely worthless. Even then it's pretty dubious since it's a huge stamina hog.

Don't sling me diatribe about not knowing how to "utilize my class" in response. Save it.

Tanking matters little without aggro. syduck:

I didn't say anything about tanking, I am merely regarding having the ability to dps. So your saying s10 is not more dps than s2 and will not increase your total dps over a fight? It most certainly will.

Your right tanking matters little without agro, but this isn't about agro at all. This is about being able to dps. If i were including that you need to hold agro while dpsing my argument would have looked totally different. Warriors are now far and above the best tanks, and paladins are left dry doing the shittiest dps of the the tanks when they are dpsing. Should a warrior who already is the best tank, also be a better dps when he isnt tanking that fight? That is what this addresses. I would have included the fact that when a knight tanks they spam agro spells which cuts into the time they melee attack. A warrior doesn't have to stop attacking and cast, they just constantly attack. There's two sides to your quick opposition. I am attempting to examine the fewest variables as possible so that the most people can understand this the easiest. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I am also bringing this up, as from my understanding of wiz's class goals that paladins were supposed to be the best dps of the tanks, and they plain and simply arn't. This has been spoken on by other people in the thread.

No mention of the Holy Fury AA anywhere. Sadness.

Your right, i forgot to mention this. I also forgot to mention the sk version of it. Thanks for bringing this up. However, from my experience it still doesn't give paladins the edge in dps over sks/wars.