One mans view of 2.0 and neccessary changes.
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Allielyn
*Pony*
Momatose said:
What I was actually trying to say with my previous post, was that requireing more than 6 healers might NOT mean the encounter needs to be retuned - it might actually mean that it's a little too hard for where your guild is now and you should come back later when you're more prepared for it. Farming one level of item drops for an extended period of time is actually intended in the progression of the raid game.
I read and agree with most of these sugguestions even before I realized it was Breaker or a Ruin guildie. I wasn't bias other than disliking 2.0 being implemented into 1.0 and not a second server. I'll admit being ignorant to things ingame and making some assuptions. Many of you said things well put and I agree with their merits. No personal attacks please. A simple "you're wrong" would suffice. I apologize my thoughts sometimes don't come out as coherent as it should be. 
2.0 is quite drastic than the first 36/4 raid cap change as Diolas and Zodium mention guilds recovered from. A compromise of 24 or 30 player cap w/ 2 or 3 class limit sounds reasonable middle ground vs this extreme change. Even if encounters were ideally tuned, I believe raiding with a just few parties is foreign and not epic but surgical strike teams. How is that helping the server if the majority(if not all) of the casual and family guilds may still never hit post mid-tier targets regardless if they're up?
Wiz, I disagree that the big guilds in all their past and current incarnations were to blame for smaller guilds short life span. The blame rest on those past smaller guilds that abandoned their cause by joinng a larger guild instead of recruiting and starting from scratch or merging with another humble guild. Those individual are more ambitious than what their guild was able to provide and rather pursue more sooner than to help the hand that clothed them.
Of those guilds that split due to the changes, generally is either halves of the guild a shell of its former glory? In otherwords did the 'ubers' of those guilds have the majority of equipment and high AA characters? That's what the 18 man raid/ guild is, a clique, leaving the leftover guild to fend for themselves at lower tier to catch up. It'd be fair if those individuals didn't pull their weight.
One has to question what makes Ruin what it is to stand the test of time of a server's of ever shifting guilds. Ruin never cared to be consisted of gear and high AA 'hardcore' elitists. Otherwise it'd go the path current guilds are. I believe it's naive to think most people will maintain the same level of friendship with rivals as if nothing happened. I see it such as family members working in a family-owned business quiting and go to a rival business since the pay/benefits are better. Sure such semantics are debatable as something as relationships are complex even through pixels.
2.0 is quite drastic than the first 36/4 raid cap change as Diolas and Zodium mention guilds recovered from. A compromise of 24 or 30 player cap w/ 2 or 3 class limit sounds reasonable middle ground vs this extreme change. Even if encounters were ideally tuned, I believe raiding with a just few parties is foreign and not epic but surgical strike teams. How is that helping the server if the majority(if not all) of the casual and family guilds may still never hit post mid-tier targets regardless if they're up?
Wiz, I disagree that the big guilds in all their past and current incarnations were to blame for smaller guilds short life span. The blame rest on those past smaller guilds that abandoned their cause by joinng a larger guild instead of recruiting and starting from scratch or merging with another humble guild. Those individual are more ambitious than what their guild was able to provide and rather pursue more sooner than to help the hand that clothed them.
Of those guilds that split due to the changes, generally is either halves of the guild a shell of its former glory? In otherwords did the 'ubers' of those guilds have the majority of equipment and high AA characters? That's what the 18 man raid/ guild is, a clique, leaving the leftover guild to fend for themselves at lower tier to catch up. It'd be fair if those individuals didn't pull their weight.
One has to question what makes Ruin what it is to stand the test of time of a server's of ever shifting guilds. Ruin never cared to be consisted of gear and high AA 'hardcore' elitists. Otherwise it'd go the path current guilds are. I believe it's naive to think most people will maintain the same level of friendship with rivals as if nothing happened. I see it such as family members working in a family-owned business quiting and go to a rival business since the pay/benefits are better. Sure such semantics are debatable as something as relationships are complex even through pixels.
shanara99
Dalayan Beginner
Yep.... everything can be done with 5 healers.... inluded a triple pull with them hitting for 1400 (double) and nuking for 3000 (which meand, basically 6-7 k max in 4 secs, and best heal, non-crit, being 4.6 k) Definetly, can be done with 5 healers, cause everyone knows 1 healer can keep up a tank when he's receiving more damage than a cleric can actually heal.
Now, without sarcasm... AT THIS MOMENT not all encounters can be done with 5 healers. I've seen guilds with 7 healers wipe on the barrier, in sep (And they had farmed previous tiers to boredom). The triple in IP can't be done with 5 healers... despite the fact that your average joe is just missing mirrors bp (and only on healers), and he'll hae all he can get on previous tiers. SURE you can balance them... of COURSE you can, but, to balance them, you'd have to decrease the dificulty, or totally revamp those encounters. If you decrease the dificulty, you're making that tier exactly as difficult that previous tier, and I don't think staffer will flush down whole zones and revamp them at this moment.
So, while, ideally, all could be done with 5 healers, considering them all were max geared for that tier, and tanks being max geared.... But, this is no an ideal world, you know... Thaz has been fully twaked (maybe except nameds) to 5 healers... and I agree that Thaz can be done with 5 healers. IP? not so much. Reason: there's only 1 guild doing IP lately... Ruin. Even if Forsaken did IP, their healers are all IP geared, so can't be used for balancing (of course once you have all gear on a zone, that one is trivia... at least, should be). And we happen to have lots of healers, mostly cause we had them in guild, and won't be telling them to sod off and create their guild apart. Even then, sometimes ruin has done ip with 6-7 healers, so we know HOW hard are some shit there, with just 5 healers, and we're saying that Luck (please, please, oh good Lady, do not let them all nuke one cleric at same time again) shouldn't be a factor in raids. Even then, in SOME of those pulls I were TRYING to heal Vargg by myself (happened three times) and, even chaining LoE, or chaining pads, or using AAce before chaining.... even all those weren't enough, just cause them mobs can pour 6-7 k damage in same time a cleric can heal 4 or 5 k! And, on a triple pull, ONE tank will have only 1 cleric... another tank will have 1 cleric and 1 druid, and another tank will have 1 druid and 1 shaman.
My point is this: IF a cleric is supposed to be better healer than a druid, and a druid better than a shaman, yuo can't have 3 EXACT mobs or more, since they'd require exact ammount of healing there. Since we already have 3 exact mobs, you can't do with 2 "supposedly best healers", 2 "decent healers" and 1 "slower who'll heal later on".
I can see now forsaken saying "But we can". Heck, sure you can, you ALREADY have all the gear that can drop there, since you were tons of months preventing anyone from getting to IP by killing taeshlin before noone could even clear them sunderdrakes. I can see PR/exxodus saying "But we managed to clear the barrier in sep" to which I'll answer "well, those are quite weak, and a cleric of that tier can survive long enough for help to get, or *attention, spoiler* tank one of the baddies long enough for another solution (from a non-tank) to work".
Let's consider a raidforce with 1 of each class, except clerics and druids. Third spot would be a DPS class, probably... like a wizard. That raid would have 3 tank types. Warrior, SK, paladin... except a paladin and a SK can't tank as much as a warrior, by class definition. Triple pulls REQUIRE triple tanks... So... if you have 3 tanks, 2 of which are, BY MERE CLASS DEFINITION, less able than one, you'd need 2 mobs LESS ABLE than one, too. This doesn't happen atm, so you need more healers to cover up for those tanks. You get what I'm saying?
Take this as an example, There are other encounters with same problems. I'd say those encounters, if you WANT a 5 healers raid, should be fully revamped, or they'd be of a previous tier dificulty.
Now, without sarcasm... AT THIS MOMENT not all encounters can be done with 5 healers. I've seen guilds with 7 healers wipe on the barrier, in sep (And they had farmed previous tiers to boredom). The triple in IP can't be done with 5 healers... despite the fact that your average joe is just missing mirrors bp (and only on healers), and he'll hae all he can get on previous tiers. SURE you can balance them... of COURSE you can, but, to balance them, you'd have to decrease the dificulty, or totally revamp those encounters. If you decrease the dificulty, you're making that tier exactly as difficult that previous tier, and I don't think staffer will flush down whole zones and revamp them at this moment.
So, while, ideally, all could be done with 5 healers, considering them all were max geared for that tier, and tanks being max geared.... But, this is no an ideal world, you know... Thaz has been fully twaked (maybe except nameds) to 5 healers... and I agree that Thaz can be done with 5 healers. IP? not so much. Reason: there's only 1 guild doing IP lately... Ruin. Even if Forsaken did IP, their healers are all IP geared, so can't be used for balancing (of course once you have all gear on a zone, that one is trivia... at least, should be). And we happen to have lots of healers, mostly cause we had them in guild, and won't be telling them to sod off and create their guild apart. Even then, sometimes ruin has done ip with 6-7 healers, so we know HOW hard are some shit there, with just 5 healers, and we're saying that Luck (please, please, oh good Lady, do not let them all nuke one cleric at same time again) shouldn't be a factor in raids. Even then, in SOME of those pulls I were TRYING to heal Vargg by myself (happened three times) and, even chaining LoE, or chaining pads, or using AAce before chaining.... even all those weren't enough, just cause them mobs can pour 6-7 k damage in same time a cleric can heal 4 or 5 k! And, on a triple pull, ONE tank will have only 1 cleric... another tank will have 1 cleric and 1 druid, and another tank will have 1 druid and 1 shaman.
My point is this: IF a cleric is supposed to be better healer than a druid, and a druid better than a shaman, yuo can't have 3 EXACT mobs or more, since they'd require exact ammount of healing there. Since we already have 3 exact mobs, you can't do with 2 "supposedly best healers", 2 "decent healers" and 1 "slower who'll heal later on".
I can see now forsaken saying "But we can". Heck, sure you can, you ALREADY have all the gear that can drop there, since you were tons of months preventing anyone from getting to IP by killing taeshlin before noone could even clear them sunderdrakes. I can see PR/exxodus saying "But we managed to clear the barrier in sep" to which I'll answer "well, those are quite weak, and a cleric of that tier can survive long enough for help to get, or *attention, spoiler* tank one of the baddies long enough for another solution (from a non-tank) to work".
Let's consider a raidforce with 1 of each class, except clerics and druids. Third spot would be a DPS class, probably... like a wizard. That raid would have 3 tank types. Warrior, SK, paladin... except a paladin and a SK can't tank as much as a warrior, by class definition. Triple pulls REQUIRE triple tanks... So... if you have 3 tanks, 2 of which are, BY MERE CLASS DEFINITION, less able than one, you'd need 2 mobs LESS ABLE than one, too. This doesn't happen atm, so you need more healers to cover up for those tanks. You get what I'm saying?
Take this as an example, There are other encounters with same problems. I'd say those encounters, if you WANT a 5 healers raid, should be fully revamped, or they'd be of a previous tier dificulty.
Ginam said:
I invite Forsaken to test the triple pull in Prison. I don't think you've done it since 2.0, and I'd be interested to see your results. Either we need to take a closer look at our healer's competence, or the trash simply does too much damage to multiple targets simultaneously.
Duma said:
Ok, I really was not going to continue in this thread, due to most of it is just whining and crying with no real understanding of the bottom line. However, blatant stupidity is one of my biggest pet peeves. It does not require that you be level 65 and have done IP to know there are changes made to SoD. If you seriously believe that, then you, yourself have some serious issues. And secondly, I have never, nor will I ever give out raid stategies, and if you think I was; either you misunderstood or see above. All I did was make an example of an obvious one just to make a point, had nothing to do with anything else.
And once again for those that are ignorant, blind, or just stubborn that they cannot accept that SoD has changed. Yes, it changed, omg, now you have to do some things differently. Anyway, I'll try to outline this so that it is simple for those that are handicapped.
1. SoD has changed. Be patient, wait for the fixes. Or just move on.
2. There is now a lower amount of folks able to join raid encounters
3. When things change, sometimes it requires that other things get tweaked and have to be fine tuned, this takes time.
4. If we continually change the amount of folks able to join a raid encounter, the longer it will take to tweak and fine tune all the changes.
What CAN be done about it?
1. Accept that SoD has changed, or move on.
2. Try the changes out. Making sure you really have tried all that you can possibly try.
3. If the above doesn't work, let the Staff know; backing that up with concrete information presented in an intelligent manner.
4. Wait for the staff to be able to respond to you.
5. Then try again. If this doesn't work, then maybe you just need to accept that you are not ready for said encounter, retrace your steps and try at a later time.
6. Accept that: Because of these changes you may lose friends due to them leaving the game. Or you may not be in as close of contact with these friends due to guild restructuring. You may also make some new friends, if you keep an open mind.
That is essentially what I had been trying to say in my previous post, hopefully this is more understandable this time around. The above steps don't require any level in game. All they require are the ability to comprehend written word, a little background knowledge of the SoD staff and how they operate, and some common sense.
But of course, even after having played SoD on and off again, since back when it was WR and I still haven't made level 65 nor have I done IP, I couldn't possibly comprehend anything. Only those that are 65 and do IP can understand that you really have to whine and cry alot because something didn't go your way, guess I'm just not in that league. Oh well, then my vote just doesn't count *sigh* Ironically, my friend's third grader understood my post and she never even played SoD, just saw it on screen. But alas, she is not 65 and never seen IP, so she could'nt possibly understand either.
syduck:chelkey said:
I saw two posts from Ruin in the balance thread already, so it looks like they're going to be helping Xeldan to balance some of the IP encounters. I'm glad to see people working together and listening to each other rather than throwing insults and 'you dont know cuz you arent in xxx zone' vs. 'oh yeah i do know cuz we did xxx mob last night!' back and forth. We'll also continue to do our best to help balance the encounters at our tier, which guilds like Revelation should be hitting extremely soon! Good luck guys.
sp4mm said:
Syalara said:
you might find that funny, sp4mm. please don't be offended, but that comment was unnecessary. it was my idea to add more axes. i posted that quite a long time ago (when i was still actively playing). wiz and other staffers admitted that there are no or not enough high-end axes in the game and that this server needs more good axes. sure, i admit that this is not the most important thing in the world, but i think adding more axes is a good suggestion nonetheless.
tinkaa
*fake Tinkerbell*
My experience with 2.0 so far is pretty good, the 18-men raid limit helps to speed up recovery a lot - even without rez bots. Now half less people are zoning and crashing when they need to be rezzed
Even though my new guild only raided 3 times so far, we had just about the right number of people online, without having too harsh restrictions about who can join and who not. I've had a good time since changes - even before PR more or less split into 2. I think SoD 2.0 still helps medium tier guilds progressing faster - though I can see the problem for lower tier guilds.
Yes, I know, I posted this extremely late after the thread has already been derailed, but what else could be expected from me :keke:
Even though my new guild only raided 3 times so far, we had just about the right number of people online, without having too harsh restrictions about who can join and who not. I've had a good time since changes - even before PR more or less split into 2. I think SoD 2.0 still helps medium tier guilds progressing faster - though I can see the problem for lower tier guilds.
Yes, I know, I posted this extremely late after the thread has already been derailed, but what else could be expected from me :keke: