Offical Ruling on Keys / keying people in

Making a blatantly false statement while at the same time leaving out vital information is not a "stated fact" no matter how much you want it to be.

I was under the impression a 2/3's rule was in play (IE 2/3's of the guild had to have been keyed, or helped with attaining the key), but I'm honestly somewhat fuzzy on this.

Fact one: 2/3 of my raid was either keyed or helped secure the key for others. The better half had done it more than once.
Fact two: there were 4 ringers on the raid (Tizanish, Arhagn, Gizmomanf, one other), which did not even account for 25% of the raid.
Fact three: the ringers present on the raid were all keyed.
Fact four: we agreed to leave until we killed Taeshlin.
Fact five: failure to clearly define the boundaries of what constitutes "content skipping" is not an error on those accused of content skipping, its fault lies with those who are responsible for defining the statutes.

Would you like to continue playing with facts?
 
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Who said we ever did

naw just last bloodfire kill numi used their ring to port past the fiend that was up.. and prob 15min into our clear you (Zedaine) and Volkov port into bloodfires obv using the well ring and said wrong wing and ported out
 
whoa volkov ported in with a tracker definitely sounds like a raid skipping content

chillville is 1 forum down guys
 
And present now is the reason why some rules are purposefully ambiguous. Because the thread is now filled with whining about what is specifically defined, and the phrase "2/3" is being thrown around with abandon, when it was clearly stated it is a "rule of thumb" and not set in stone.

But whatever. Feel free to continue your petty diatribe. Be sure to include more facts.
 
You came up with less than half the raid that was keyed, and several were not in your guild, so dont even start.

Well, you stated something that was incredibly incorrect, so we presented information to the contrary.

Is it really that incredibly absurd to state a situation that is in direct relation to this thread, in order to possibly obtain some sort of clarifation to the actual rule?

Also, the way you delt with the situation imo was incredibly harsh. While I do appricate that you stayed around to awnser questions that we had, i'm still curious as to why you wouldn't define what is, and is not a pickup raid that is acceptable in a content zone.
 
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Wait wait wait. You leave the boundaries transparent so you have a safe, cuddly copout to offer when you enforce a rule? That's cute, Snuggles. If you're going to disclaim that the rule is "not set in stone," maybe you should also disclaim that it's subject to your own special interpretation on any given day.

I really don't care that we were forced to leave IP; honestly, it was a minor setback. However, citing specific numbers in a rule then not honoring it is pretty fucking stupid. It gives people a reason to question the integrity of both your judgement and the rules, or lack thereof.
 
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whoa volkov ported in with a tracker definitely sounds like a raid skipping content

I would say using a well ring that wasn't earned by Goon to bypass the Flair Fiends is kinda meh. It's getting past a stationary guard that otherwise you wouldn't be able to pass w/o the greater ring. So yeah in a way it's skipping IMO.
 
And present now is the reason why some rules are purposefully ambiguous. Because the thread is now filled with whining about what is specifically defined, and the phrase "2/3" is being thrown around with abandon, when it was clearly stated it is a "rule of thumb" and not set in stone.

But whatever. Feel free to continue your petty diatribe. Be sure to include more facts.

Basically what this comes down to is the fact that when we put it 'in stone' we tend to get a lot of nit-pickers who exploit the rules to follow the 'letter of the law' while still violating the 'spirit of the law'. Then we have to make new rules to plug these 'loopholes' and the rulebook begins to resemble current USA tax code.

Our simple solution is to have a general rule set while the staff understands what the spirit of the law intends, and give players a rule of thumb, IE: "Don't kill stuff you're not keyed to kill as a guild. In a pickup raid most players will need keys".

No player should waltz in here throwing around numbers to say "AHAHA I HAD 2/3!!" I am not interested in a conversation about whether keyed means the character itself or the original player of said character (yes those are two different things and using a 'ringer' to key yourself is expressly NOT allowed), nor in nitpicking the finer details of boxing and what does that mean for who is playing whom, nor in counting out every player, or refining a different ruleset for pickup raids vs established guilds vs re-formed guilds. I especially don't want to have to hire professionals to write or understand convoluted law. It doesn't need to be that difficult.

Don't skip content if there's a progression to be had which is enforced by the presence of keys. Even if you CAN.

This conversation ends here, and if I see it continue I will temporarily forum-ban the offenders and delete every additional post in this thread save for the pertinent ones clarifying the policy.

If you have issues with the way any GM ruling was made to which you were part, or if you want specific clarification on an existing policy, you can feel free to email me at [email protected] and I will investigate the matter further. But this is NOT the place for mudslinging between players nor between players and staffers, especially when that mudslinging comes close to accusing staff of corruption and favoritism.
 
whoa volkov ported in with a tracker definitely sounds like a raid skipping content

chillville is 1 forum down guys

Using something that a guild did not earn to scout something that the guild would not be able to scout otherwise without killing mobs IS content skipping.
 
Using something that a guild did not earn to scout something that the guild would not be able to scout otherwise without killing mobs IS content skipping.

volkov earned it and uses it to track who cares if goon didn't earn it. If they aren't using it to skip the demon volkov imo has EVERY right to use it to scout. Using it to pass the demon for the whole raid = no. You can track each wing anyways. at certain areas. All it does is not have to deal with spam dying to demons after hitting tracking button. Its just a time saver not skipping anything.

And if thats content skipping (seeing as thats if it is skipping its like a very small misdemeanor) why wasn't some top tier guilds all banned for skipping content multiple times (passing mobs to get into new areas, not having to kill something to get into the next zone, running past mobs when they didn't have tether etc)?

seems rules aren't very clear at all. you guys should have a strict rule about all this PLUS strict punishments. Not banning/jailing someone for 3 hours for a bannable offense.
 
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Honestly, spending a few seconds thinking about the design would tell you it's something that the staff doesn't want you doing.

If it was okay to use someone else's key to port your raid in, keys existing would be entirely pointless since most every key is group / raid wide.
 
volkov earned it and uses it to track who cares if goon didn't earn it.

If he's not scouting for goon, then nobody does. However, if he's scouting for a goon raid, then goon is gaining benefit from something they did not earn.

If they aren't using it to skip the demon volkov imo has EVERY right to use it to scout.

Wrong. You ARE using it to skip the demon to scout, which is something other guilds who do not have access to that ring cannot do. If there's nothing up, are you going to come in and kill the demon anyway? No, so yes, you have skipped it.

You can track each wing anyways. at certain areas. All it does is not have to deal with spam dying to demons after hitting tracking button. Its just a time saver not skipping anything.

Then track from other areas like other guilds who haven't earned it have to. It's being used as a time saver for a guild that should not have access to it.

Basically, a guild should not be deriving any benefit from keys they did not earn. Time savings IS benefit.
 
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