Non-raid dungeon loot tables

[Allielyn]

The problem is that you're taking gear from 50s and 60s zones and calling it gear for 30s 40s. The reason you're not getting upgrades in these zones is that you BOUGHT it well in advance. Technically, if you geared yourself up by wearing what you killed, so to speak, you would never have this problem.

I, too, find it exciting to be able to kill things that might drop upgrades for me. But I would much much rather kill things that don't drop upgrades (because I bought it in advance) than to risk having to kill things that drop No Drop stuff that will rot all the time (and you know it will).

 

[Haphesto]

The economy is stagnant enough due to the population, there is no need for more rare items that drop off named to become No Drop.

I like Laksha's idea of each dungeon having a set of armor appropriate to the level. Similar to dreadfang's gnoll hide or yaralith's chain, Mielech could drop semi-rare No Drop plate. Sorc Lab could drop leather, Sun Mines/Grottos chain, Dragon Necropolis silk/cloth, or some other combination with the zones. Something to help pad inbetween upgrades. Ive seen far too many raiders upgrading Soft Leather. :sadf:

 

[Yakk]

The economy is stagnant enough due to the population, there is no need for more rare items that drop off named to become No Drop.

In an economy in which items enter and do not leave, in order for the economy to be stagnant there needs to be an expontential number of people joining the game as time progresses.

First set of people go from L 1 to 65. They gather gear for each level range, and sell it when they are done.
Second set of people, twice as large as first, go from L 1 to 65, and buy gear off the first set. 1/2 of the gear they get comes from killing mobs, 1/2 from buying it.
Third set of people, twice as large as second, go from L 1 to 65, and buy gear off the second set. 1/2 of the gear they get comes from killing mobs, 1/2 from buying it.

So long as the exponential growth keeps up, players have to buy half of their gear and loot half of their gear. The later "sets" can even be twinks.

But if the exponential growth doesn't keep up, gear "backs up" and the economy gets flooded.

Exponential growth isn't sustainable. So either mudflation kicks in (and high end rare items become dirt common, making dungeon-loot at your level pointless), or gear must leave the economy at a rate matching the rate at which it enters the economy, divided by the rate of growth in the player population.

Getting gear to leave the economy can be done in many ways. For example, everytime sword X drops, the server could simply delete a random instance of the sword on some other character. Some ways of getting gear to leave the economy would not be very popular.

NO DROP and ATTUNEable items also cause gear to leave the economy. NO DROP items never enter the economy -- using NO DROP simply removes the economy, instead of balancing it.

ATTUNEable stifle the economy to a lesser extent. It removes hand-me-downs.

Items that, say, can be worn by 3 people before they can no longer be used by a 4th, provide some hand-me-down economics, but all items eventually leave the economy.

Yet another solution is exponential gear mudflation, used in some other games. This involves making new items exponentially better than old items, and generally messes up game balance.

 

[Zaos]

the problem is that you're taking gear from 50s and 60s zones and calling it gear for 30s 40s.

Lol, thats so silly. No, thats definately NOT the problem. At 65 people are often still wearing items from paw, kaladim, miela and b, low price trade gear, a few old newbie starfall quests items and THEN the random cheap, sub par 60s item from a 50s or 60s dungeon. Wearing these items while spending hundreds of hours doing experience in zones that could potentially be rendering useable upgrades. That about sums up what I wore. At 65 I had two bracer of champions, gauntlets of dismal energy, warlord bp, offerer cloak, cheap trade armor & rings, wyvern earring, gob earring, starfall neck, some cheap low lvl boots... I can go on. NONE of which required me to be over level 50 to aquire. THATs the problem.. not me calling high lvl loot low lvl loot. Most of the upgrades I now have came from tougher tmaps and raids which pretty much require a guild. Most of the drops in most of the 50s+ dungeons are simply sub par and attempting to argue that will require one to state the obvious exceptions as opposed to accepting the actual situation. Its not like its something that I'm overly concerned about as I wouldnt give it a super high level of importance but down the road I'd say it should definately be looked at.

 

[Allielyn]

At 65 people are often still wearing items from paw, kaladim, miela and b, low price trade gear, a few old newbie starfall quests items and THEN the random cheap, sub par 60s item from a 50s or 60s dungeon.

I've seen lots of nice items from 50s-60s dungeons that would be upgrades to many of those items you just named. Many in the zones that have been mentioned. Perhaps you should move around more? I know some of the drops are a little rare, but not so much that you can't spend some time in there getting good exp while camping them. And of course, I wouldn't assume that a character who focussed more on exp grind to 65 instead of gearing up on the way should really have lots of premium gear.

If you don't know what to camp, then explore! If you're expecting someone to come out and say "O I farm this zone because the loot drops are bank cash" then you'll probably not be sucessful, many people keep their personal cash farming zones secret. (Although Adalus never does, and it hasn't really ended up in much competition for him, so maybe it doesn't matter).

Or perhaps you can actually post items that drop in 50s 60s dungeons that you think are subpar. That would be a much better route if you think you have a strong case. Compare the loot from a 64 named to the loot from MielechB, contrast the difficulties of the encounters, and then indicate what should be done about it. For the moment, unfortunately, all you have is vague assertations that most people posting here seem to disagree with.

 

[Zaos]

Allielyn.. remember when we were trying working our way into the crypt the other day? The reason I said we should go there is because virtually every item that drops in both the wings is subpar. I actually hesitated to start listing items because the list would actually be very long and I didnt want to make this out to be some serious issue like I'm beefing about SoD or with those who work so hard at bringing it to us. This is a suggestion and its a totally valid one. I dont need to try to make a case (certainly not any further than what I have) for its irrefutable. Everyone complains about it every time I camp virtually any zone 50+ for xp where a name spawns (and please people.. dont state the exceptions as if they overthrow the rule). I've said my piece. Perhaps people can start posting items they think are subpar or continue offering suggestions instead.

 

[rab]

You can very much disagree with something and not be seen as hating the server. I'm probably the biggest griper and complainer on staff, but that doesn't mean I don't love SoD. If your point is valid, there's no reason to fear people thinking otherwise.

And I really think you (or others) do need specifics, because right now you're saying things like "it's irrefutable" and it's "totally valid." Well, you need something to back that up other than "everyone complains" because sweeping generalizations without substance make me cry.

So here's a few specific questions that should be answered, I think.

Which zones? Only Kedge, Labyrinth, and Mielech C? What about FG, RSM, Highkeep, EC?
Which items? Mielech C has an Experimental Axe which is certainly not something someone at 50+ is going to use.

The staff isn't that omniscient, and even those of us who play don't necessarily have a frame of reference to what you're talking about.

 

[Thinkmeats]

Which zones? Only Kedge, Labyrinth, and Mielech C? What about FG, RSM, Highkeep, EC?
Which items? Mielech C has an Experimental Axe which is certainly not something someone at 50+ is going to use.

It isn't as complex as it seems to keep track of these things. Just pay attention to what level 65 people use and sell--watch what they wear and what they're buying and what they're farming (though obviously not the people decked out in raid gear). More importantly, watch the prices.

RSM seems to have good loot, because it (generally) sells well. The ever-farmed Blazing Viel and Blazing Crown fetch a good price, and while the market on the serrated steel bp crashed, it only did so after lots and lots of people bought it. Bagorocks is still profitable. The knife and ring from furious little imp don't do as well, because the hitler imp is pretty wicked for his level and pri/sec items dropped in dungeons are pretty much worthless, but so what? The bracer does well, the neck and gloves do well, the robe does well, the shoulders do well, and so on. The hat from corpsey is garbage, i can't give flashfire away, the whip from slaver isn't worth much for the same reason, but something like 80% of the zone's drops are plenty worth the time. RSM's loot is quite nice and attracts a steady crowd of brave people who spend the time to learn the zone and get the rewards for doinso. The raid mob in the back of RSM gathers dust, however--general consensus is that it isn't worth the time to haul a force back there to kill just the one mob, since any force capable of doing it has better things to do.

FG, well, when's the last time you saw something for sale that came from FG? Have you ever seen anything from FG? The stuff from that zone is mostly not good, despite how often people hunt there for xp (and it's often). A while back I got the boots from the conjurer updated, so now I can sometimes sell them, but usually stuff from that zone just doesn't like to move, so I stick to hunting for spell drops and xp when I'm in that zone. It's mostly a symptom of a small number of nameds coupled with some nameds being ill-suited to most xp groups (the guy who drops the DI robe, for example), and I don't remember being particularly impressed by the drops (easier nameds elsewhere drop better).

EC is another good loot zone. Stuff from there pops up in /auc sometimes, and in wanelos even more often. Despite having a small number of nameds, people still go there, and Crystal Oracle is especially popular, though the yeti, pureblood, and mruuk still get plenty of love. Few people deal with the Lurking Terror, but I suspect that's because they're sissies--I haven't personally tangoed with him and so can't comment on his loot.

That's another thing to remember: Sometimes zones aren't farmed because they're crummy, but sometimes it's because people are pussies. Because they are. Boy howdy, people are pussies when it comes to new things. Getting people into RSM is like pulling teeth. That's why checking auc and wanelos is a good rule of thumb--it isn't absolute, you still need to be familair with the zones themselves.

Anyway, moving on, kedge stuff shows up in auc a lot, but only stuff from the kedge entrance. The hat is a big hit (few people who get it let go of it), the fist isn't worth the bits it's printed on, and the FT2 mantle does pretty well. The afflicted eye has become common due to people soaking the sweet, sweet ZEM of kedge, and it usually finds a home. The bow is generally unloved, the waist is kind of ok, the claw thing from one of the Ones is pretty popular, caller event is generally untouched because people are sissies (it may have good loot, it may not, it's hard to say), though the resist bracer I did see from it isn't much loved because resist gear outside the raidgame (which provides its own resist gear) isn't exceptionally useful. As with RSM, the raid mob in the back of kedge is unused: general consensus is that it isn't worth the time to haul a force back there to kill just the one mob, since any force capable of doing it has better things to do. Consider how long the AWT was ignored, and he's about 10x easier to get to.

Catacombs is ever-popular, except the lady of sorrows and the spider boss, who are pretty much never touched because the consensus is they drop stuff that isn't worth the time for a group who can do them, and the lady especially is a pain in the ass to get to. Additionally, Cmalath is extremely popular and for good reason. I have nothing bad to say about cmalath.

Labyrinth is outside my area of expertise. I mostly neglect mielc, though it's worth reminding people who complain about the loot from there that the stuff in mielc isn't exactly "hard". You can't expect snazzy loot from crap you can run over 4 at a time without blinking using a half-assed pickup group. I haven't achieved nearly the mastery of Highkeep as I have of the other zones. All undead + see invis + locked doors = adalus stay away, for the most part. I'll probably get down there sooner or later.

Lastly, treasure maps are of the utmost importance, and are exceedingly awesome. They play a BIG part of non-raid gear, and they count as dungeon loot (ish) because you get them from dungeons. Obviously, the most popular dungeons are the ones where both tmaps and loot can be had while still getting good xp.

edit: Also, unless there's some special gimmick or utility on the pri/sec/ranged item in question, they are all bad. All of 'em. The easiest to obtain get juggled around but because almost *everyone* ends up with some kind of raid or tmap pri/sec/rng, the dungeon ones gather dust. What's worse, they're often the rare drop, so it's like you won the anti-lottery when they do make appearances. 90% of the use dungeon-dropped weapons saw was for twinks, and now with the level reqs most of them aren't worth anything. There definitely do need to be weapons available, however. I don't know of a good way to resolve this.

Bottom line? Dungeon loot is for the most part pretty good, though more options would be nice, zones with more variety are preferable to those with less, zones where you don't have to spend hours killing to get to a single named aren't as good as zones that are more flexible (cata and cmal are basically 6 man raid zones anyway, and fit their roles nicely; I simply mean to say that there doesn't really need to be another cata/cmal type dungeon. A mob level 55-64 level version of RSM, on the other hand, would make me very very happy). See invis mobs are annoying, and zones where only some (fewer the better) mobs see invis are preferable to those where everything sees invis and you have to follow paths to get where you want. More nameds are better than fewer (softens the impact of the occasonial limited-class or otherwise unpopular item). Named drops are better than rare drops off trash (more exciting than fighting the same mob over and over again with your fingers crossed, and finding tmaps off mobs does that job anyway), and mob variety is better than not (some classes have a hard time with some mobs, so zones that contain a mix don't hedge them out).

Boy there ended up being a lot of words here. I really love the single-grouped / DC game on SoD and if you don't stop me I'll talk for ages and ages about which zones I <3 and which zones I </3 and why and why some are more popular than others despite being worse and bla bla bla

 

[rab]

Sometimes I take bets on how many ninja edits thinkmeats can do before someone else posts. Only 1 edit this time, I'm disappointed.

Nice post though. I have almost zip to say on this area since when I exp I ... do it for exp and not items, and anything that drops is so inconsequential to me that I just toss it in my listing vault at a fair price and forget about it until hey "you have money waiting for you at the bank" accosts my screen.

I can say highkeep loot is generally very good, but the difficulty might be higher than most are accustomed to. I did pretty deep in, but that was with the best player from each class in the group (except cleric!). The loot, while nothing Rabb would use, is still very very good and sells pretty well because of it.

 

[Allielyn]

Yes! Thank you Adalus, for posting what I didn't have the time or the patience to do. Your post was pure gold! <3

 

[Thinkmeats]

Sometimes I take bets on how many ninja edits thinkmeats can do before someone else posts. Only 1 edit this time, I'm disappointed.

Nice post though. I have almost zip to say on this area since when I exp I ... do it for exp and not items, and anything that drops is so inconsequential to me that I just toss it in my listing vault at a fair price and forget about it until hey "you have money waiting for you at the bank" accosts my screen.

I can say highkeep loot is generally very good, but the difficulty might be higher than most are accustomed to. I did pretty deep in, but that was with the best player from each class in the group (except cleric!). The loot, while nothing Rabb would use, is still very very good and sells pretty well because of it.

The HHK groups I'm aware of tend to sit in the first area, DS the tank, and pull gobs of skeletons. I can't imagine that's how the zone is supposed to work, though I hear it's quite nice XP. The locked doors and see-invis mobs all over the place prevent me from exploring it much, and it's hard to get people to explore inward when the experience in the front is so good. I mean, I'm a chanty and I've got my 36k charm; I don't really need any money. Neither do most of the people I play with, so everyone's happier soaking up the lightning quick xp. I believe the "RSM-like" dungeon wiz mentioned in my RSM thread a ways back is hhk, so you'd think I'd practically live there, but because it's full of all undead and I can't go exploring in it, I tend to leave it alone. It'd be great if someone who's explored hhk some could post in here. Given that it's a new zone, though, I'd bet that hhk has pretty good loot for its difficulty.

 

[vistachiri]

Alot of the zones mentioned I havent actually explored so my opinion is pretty limited by that. Mielc however gets totally owned by mielb loot hands down. You've got the warlord drops, rogue who occasionally im told drops tboots, but I'm sick of killing his ph and only go when im really...really bored (87 times and counting, not in a row mind you), offerer and trisk w/the haste cloak and invis shoulders, lightbearer, high templar, shademaster (w/ok boots and a poisonprocarrow clicky), master grakli...and ummm....hmm i think im still missing one or 2....oh the ancient myconid guy w/the ft cap and the spore trinket. Think I got em all. Mielc I've seen waaay subpar loot comparitively for a more difficult zone. You've got those 2 bracelets, which actually get owned pretty well by a bracelet that drops in miela (yeah...thats right miela), not to mention it gets owned by a 50's tmap bracelet and one in the 60's. Then you've got the frog clicky, experimental axe, some frogpants and such which are alright (and humorous to equip on a froglock). The pretty much best reason to go there lootwise at all is the giant/dragon armor drops, which I've seen not drop in a few hours, and then drop like candy every other few mobs (so thats a craps shoot).

RSM I've heard fantastic things about, but I've spent maybe a total of 5 minutes there, cant really find a safe spot too well and goblins hate me much...so cant say anything about that one. Firegrottos ive also never been in. Haven't seen much of sorc's either for that matter. As for Kedge I don't even view it as a loot zone per se. There are a few decent drops I know of there, Blade and Spike are both pretty much booby prizes. But Kedge xp is pretty own.

Sirens I havent been back to as no groups really go there that I'm in. I did a little bit there in the 50's and didnt see any loot other than trashloots mostly so I hold no opinion on that one either.

Cmal is pretty good, but then..it should be w/a max of 6 in zone.

DN I've seen a few good drops, haven't taken out a bunch of named there though and there are still some there that remain unkilled by me.

Elds ive seen ok stuff as well. Though a few drops I've seen aren't that stellar, especially compared to mielb.

Firstruins deep in I'm not too sure, I've honestly never been in that deep, I usually end up getting halfway through the undead city solo til chanters mez me while golems have a heyday w/my poor highelf body.

Highkeep I've never been in past the entrance b/c I can't solo the entrance 2 since the mageheal nerf, though since I just recently acquired the earthpet I might try my luck again. But most people probably don't go b/c its a huge pain in the ass to get to.

All in all the biggest problem I've seen is mielc itself.