Thinkmeats
War Is Good For Business
quit this petty bickering and get back on topic thanks in advance
new rule?
- Thread starter kurdt
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ok so he can attack me but if i respond im in the wrong? w/e last im gona say about that . and the point of this is to point out a wrong and get it changed i dont give a crap about the loot but if your gona have rules they need to be changed if somethign like this happens
Botiemaster
Dalayan Beginner
I understand it quite differently and I'll leave it at that.Trust And Fall said:
I zoned into air really slowly. I figured server was acting up again but I finally zoned in. I noticed fusion was there also running their asses off towards the same way we were going, sultan, only to be blocked off by trash apparently, so a few of us in bane/cw got to sultan first. I don't know who zoned in first. I don't know who had 12 in first. The only thing I really care about is some of us in bane/cw raid died at sultan when someone in raid I think trained us by going too close to the door nearby and a mob aggro'd, or it might have been a repop. Later on in the night we were rezzing our dead to leave the zone to Fusion and I saw two inc roamer adds heading to sultan, we had rezzed the last person and I evac'd out to save our butts. Anyway, Wiz was in zone and called for everyone to go back to zonein and handle biz between Bane and Fusion.
Imho I think a new rule needs to be, whoever gets there first AND has the most characters should get the zone, in the case that two guilds happen to zone there at the same time. Fusion very clearly was going after the higher tier nameds in air and they were not going to kill crap with 12 people. I've never been a fan of locking down a zone, even though I will do it myself simply because other guilds have no problem doing it to CW. What comes around, goes around. That might give us a negative point to our name, but I think it's best not to let people walk all over you.
panthernoswar
Dalayan Beginner
How about someone post somewhere, maybe Tome of Knowledge or something, about what the exact raid rules are, since until last night I had never heard that the first 12 in zone owns the zone, and that you should get proof via screenshot/timestamp, might save some trouble later on, especially with randomized mob timers.
robopirateninja
Staff Emeritus
Botiemaster said:
This is a terrible idea, just because it takes one guild 18 people to kill a mob does not mean they should be able to take the zone away from a guild who was there first, and clearing towards the same mob with less people. Penalizing a guild for being better would be the worst thing I can think of.
stope21
Dalayan Elder
First off, i'd like everyone to quit attacking anyone personally, there is no reason for it.
I am one of the leaders of fusion, and I led the raid in PoA last night. The following is my account of what happened:
-I log in, i see we have 18 people online. We decide to raid. I do /who poa all, nobody is there. I have no idea bane had raided or even what they raided that night at this point.
-I then load my friends rogue, and ask Tyrone to port me up so I can scout. Tyrone finishes the tmap he's doing, and ports me up (about 15 minutes later).
-I notice Sultan and Seductress are both up, w/ 1 mephit, 1 or 2 ancient wind torrents, and 2 djinni up prior to sultan. I notice a pile of bane corpsers near sultan. I con one to get a time stamp as to how long ago they wiped. It conned at 1 hour 30 minutes, meaning they wiped 90 minutes ago.
-I do /who bane all, to further ensure that we wont have complications. There is 7 of them online and in various zones. We begin to meet in erudin.
-As we are rallying in erudin, one of my members says in guild: Bane and Chaotic winds are forming in Gfay.
-Erudin crashes. Erudin comes back online. Members log back in and as soon as we had 12 people, we port up.
-I'm one of the first to zone in. It is me and fusion members only. Before all of my members finish zoning, a Bane member zones in. I assume they ported up withing the same 30 second to 1 minute window as us, likely just after us.
-I tell my members to move up to mephits and begin clearing asap, as I was under the impression the first raid w/ 12 members in raid and clearing has rights to the zone. Prior to engaging the mephit, a few bane members come up behind us.
-We have 12 members in zone, we kill a mephit.
-As mephit dies, bane/cw has now centralized behind us
-Bane/cw runs past us, and one of the roaming wind torrents agros our raid, which we proceed to kill aswell.
-Wiz zones in
I'm not 100% familiar w/ the rules, as I have yet to find a clearly defined statement as to whom has rights to a raid zone. I was under the impression it was first w/ 12 and clearing, as to ensure people have a moderate raid force, and arnt just afk in the zone claiming it. I feel this is something that needs to be clarified, possibly in Tome of Knowledge.
As far as us coming in: I conned you're corpses at sultan at 90 minutes since wipe, PRIOR to use rallying in erudin. If you dont re-enter the zone in 90 minutes, you obviously have stopped your raid, forfeiting your rights to the zone. Furthermore, I went the extra step to /who bane all noticing 7 of your members in various zones.
I can understand a raid having to port back up, reform etc, but 90-110 minutes before you re-enter a zone, and with another guild with you (Chaotic Winds), is clearly not a resurrection/continueing the raid attempt. That means yall lost the numbers to do the raid, formed a new raid, and attemped to port up again.
From what i can discern, It appeared we ported up possibly not even a minute ahead of yall, as a few of us entered the zone, and then the first of your members started showing up.
I'd like to go on to say, the fact that you cleared the zone at a previous time gives you no claim to the zone. Once you leave the zone, you lose all rights to it.
Prior to last night, Fusion cleared PoA up to sultan and seductress. The next night, we were forming to finish what we started the night before, and bane formed up and beat us to the zone. Did any of bane's members get called names, a nasty post on the forum saying yall were bad people, or anything along those lines? No, you sure didnt. I can understand you being upset that you were not able to kill the bosses after you cleared the trash. But it happens. Dont accuse my members of being liars, bad people etc. If you have a problem, say what you think happened and why you think you were wronged.
My advice to you would be to start filling in people that are leaving w/ new people as the old ones leave. This way you can continue to raid, and continue your claim to a zone.
--edited for gramatical errors--
I am one of the leaders of fusion, and I led the raid in PoA last night. The following is my account of what happened:
-I log in, i see we have 18 people online. We decide to raid. I do /who poa all, nobody is there. I have no idea bane had raided or even what they raided that night at this point.
-I then load my friends rogue, and ask Tyrone to port me up so I can scout. Tyrone finishes the tmap he's doing, and ports me up (about 15 minutes later).
-I notice Sultan and Seductress are both up, w/ 1 mephit, 1 or 2 ancient wind torrents, and 2 djinni up prior to sultan. I notice a pile of bane corpsers near sultan. I con one to get a time stamp as to how long ago they wiped. It conned at 1 hour 30 minutes, meaning they wiped 90 minutes ago.
-I do /who bane all, to further ensure that we wont have complications. There is 7 of them online and in various zones. We begin to meet in erudin.
-As we are rallying in erudin, one of my members says in guild: Bane and Chaotic winds are forming in Gfay.
-Erudin crashes. Erudin comes back online. Members log back in and as soon as we had 12 people, we port up.
-I'm one of the first to zone in. It is me and fusion members only. Before all of my members finish zoning, a Bane member zones in. I assume they ported up withing the same 30 second to 1 minute window as us, likely just after us.
-I tell my members to move up to mephits and begin clearing asap, as I was under the impression the first raid w/ 12 members in raid and clearing has rights to the zone. Prior to engaging the mephit, a few bane members come up behind us.
-We have 12 members in zone, we kill a mephit.
-As mephit dies, bane/cw has now centralized behind us
-Bane/cw runs past us, and one of the roaming wind torrents agros our raid, which we proceed to kill aswell.
-Wiz zones in
I'm not 100% familiar w/ the rules, as I have yet to find a clearly defined statement as to whom has rights to a raid zone. I was under the impression it was first w/ 12 and clearing, as to ensure people have a moderate raid force, and arnt just afk in the zone claiming it. I feel this is something that needs to be clarified, possibly in Tome of Knowledge.
As far as us coming in: I conned you're corpses at sultan at 90 minutes since wipe, PRIOR to use rallying in erudin. If you dont re-enter the zone in 90 minutes, you obviously have stopped your raid, forfeiting your rights to the zone. Furthermore, I went the extra step to /who bane all noticing 7 of your members in various zones.
I can understand a raid having to port back up, reform etc, but 90-110 minutes before you re-enter a zone, and with another guild with you (Chaotic Winds), is clearly not a resurrection/continueing the raid attempt. That means yall lost the numbers to do the raid, formed a new raid, and attemped to port up again.
From what i can discern, It appeared we ported up possibly not even a minute ahead of yall, as a few of us entered the zone, and then the first of your members started showing up.
I'd like to go on to say, the fact that you cleared the zone at a previous time gives you no claim to the zone. Once you leave the zone, you lose all rights to it.
Prior to last night, Fusion cleared PoA up to sultan and seductress. The next night, we were forming to finish what we started the night before, and bane formed up and beat us to the zone. Did any of bane's members get called names, a nasty post on the forum saying yall were bad people, or anything along those lines? No, you sure didnt. I can understand you being upset that you were not able to kill the bosses after you cleared the trash. But it happens. Dont accuse my members of being liars, bad people etc. If you have a problem, say what you think happened and why you think you were wronged.
My advice to you would be to start filling in people that are leaving w/ new people as the old ones leave. This way you can continue to raid, and continue your claim to a zone.
--edited for gramatical errors--
Mythryn
Dalayan Master
They shouldn't have to if they see 7 members on in cities/exp zones/whatever and no members in PoAir. The fact that they started clearing first, won the /random Wiz put in place, and didn't wipe to seduc/sultan means they really should get the zone. From Elindals account it seems like YOU are the ones guilty of leapfrogging when you ran past them while they were clearing trash.kurdt said:
stope21
Dalayan Elder
robopirateninja said:
I agree, i cant tell you how many times we've killed new bosses for the first time that drop very nice upgrades for us with 12, 13, and 14 people. I can even think of examples. That would only benefit the bigger raids.
I wont say its a terrible idea, but I'll say its less then optimal, and could definatly cause conflicts.
Mythryn
Dalayan Master
The 12 man rule (or whatever number it is) had to be put in place because of Forsaken(Legacy) and Ruin. When Ruin broke into OP/IP there were quite a few struggles for targets and the staff got tired of it. A rule like that is basically the best option to keep the raiding community civil.stope21 said:
Elysium
Dalayan Adventurer
To my guildmates in Bane: please stop with the flames, it doesn't help your argument at all. I wasn't at this raid (I haven't been able to play much if at all lately) but from what I've heard, the decision to /random for the zone was completely fair. Being out of the zone for 90 minutes is, in my opinion, well within an acceptable range of time for a different guild to take over. Also, stop using the fact that we cleared to Sultan as some kind of claim for the zone and that Fusion stole it from us.. because as Stope pointed out, we did the exact same thing to Fusion (even the same mob) a few weeks ago.
HandsofChaos
Dalayan Beginner
You're upset that Wiz didn't magically discern who had the rights to the zone when the two sides couldn't even agree on the sequences of events." - Hasrett. I'm sorry. I am a bit pissed but that’s nothing. You are however taking me wrong. Wiz informed us that if one side did not back down then we would go over the log and find out who was first. We did not request this. Then he informed us that he could not determine who in fact was first so we had to /ran. robopirateninja we are not trying to start guild drama so don't play that card. What we are trying to do is make everyone aware that we were completely wronged. If the rule is the first 12 to zone in claims the zone then I suggest you find a more solid way to enforce this rule then a /ran. We had 12 first you zoned in with 7-8-9 and ran past us. You barely got 12 there just before wiz showed up and when he did you started to cry we were here first with 12. robopirateninja you are right this has happened before and with the way raid mobs are timed it will happen again has we race to w/e mob is up. However, the last time it happened we all felt that you did in fact beat us to pon so we left without saying a single word. All we asked from you last night was the same respect. But you tell lies and try to make us out to be the bad guys. So what I'm saying is (1) you will need a better system to handle this then /ran and (2) fix the werewolf script in pon so Elindal can't zone in and pop it on us any more cause that’s just low... (3) We are not backing down from this type of thing again because if we do then it encourages fusion to try these tactics again and (4) sorry wiz I know it was confusing but I was pissed and jumped the gun and said we would leave without causing trouble before asking everyone else what they wanted to do. But like I said if we had done that then this would encourage fusion to try this type of thing again... And last we jumped over you because we had a full raid force and you did not have 12 in the zone and we asked you to leave and you did not so we had no other choice.
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