New bane on items.
- Thread starter Lleoc
- Start date
Rorne
The sad fish is a reactionary creature; an enemy o
Does this mean the calc for delay 25 or above in relation to bane dmg on gear has been changed?
Obscenitor
Dalayan Elder
Classic Waldoff
Given 14 bane (the current or near future max) would be a - what, 60% increase? - I think it is pretty clear the damage was changed. It is currently a pure % increase per bane, with a number still in flux.
You need to learn to post actual information or constructive opinion instead of thinly veiled insults or you will quickly find yourself not welcome in S&R or Classes and Gear.
You need to learn to post actual information or constructive opinion instead of thinly veiled insults or you will quickly find yourself not welcome in S&R or Classes and Gear.
So, just to make sure I understand. If say, 1 would hit something for 10. Then add a bane 10 item to my equipment, would it hit for 11?
I was trying to test nature 6 yesterday, but saw no damage change on my bellows nuke and just curious how this new formula works.
Bane effects melee damage by taking every damage you do via melee and increasing it by a set percentage depending on your bane amount.. The old normalize-to-delay method hid the ball and was overly confusing for no real gain. The modifier is what is currently up in flux. It should be relatively noticable around 4-6 bane, though.
As far as spells go, we dd not change how spells interact with bane. If I remember correctly, spells just add the bane number to the end of the spell. So a 1000 damage spell with 20 bane would be a 1020 spell. We have focused mostly on melee with this change, because to be honest this is supposed to be a little bonus for melee, but I would be up for discussion on how it should interact with spell damage.
Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
Old system: Melee stack bane humanoid to do almost as much dps as casters, wear outdated and gimmicky items because of their bane damage, do hundreds less dps against non-humanoids.
If you want to give melee an improvement over this, the best options are to either revert bane items and make humanoid apply to every mob or scrap the bane system in favor of something else. Bane damage on items is a mechanic that introduces a lot more problems than it solves, in both the old system and the new.
The new system will be a boost if melees can have bane damage to a wide spectrum of targets without having to wear gear that is below their tier, but then why even have bane damage. Just bump melee dps up innately or something. This new system is basically just forcing melee to worry about a whole new category of focus effects, and still has the problems of the old system.
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You seem to be making the assumption that melees are somehow supposed to be "balanced" around Bane to keep up with casters. The old bane was an abboration that was never meant to be like it was. The fact that on humanoid mobs melees used to do 40-50% more dps when stacking every bane item in the game was never a balancing tool, it was an unforseen consequence of a minor change to worn bane that was not well thought out when first put in meaning to be a small bonus.
Fewer people stacked bane to progress through the tiers then everyone is suggesting. In fact, it looks like it was primarily one guild who was utilizing widespread stacking, with other guilds using it much more sporadically.
Using broken bane as a baseline is simply not something we are using. Melees should not be doing 40-60% more DPS because of a mechanic like bane damage.
The only way this system will be viewed as a success by the playerbase is if melee dps ends up somewhere near where it was before the changes; otherwise regardless of terminology used it's a melee nerf. For bane to have as negligible an effect as it appears it's intended to have means base melee dps will need to be boosted significantly to make up the difference. Weaning melees off over-reliance on one mechanic to get dps on par with casters is a good goal, but it will never be received as a positive if the end result is a 20 to 30 percent damage nerf.
Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
I agree one hundred and ten percent, glad we're on the same page. Do you have anything in the works to bring melee back up to the same area as the other dps classes?
maybe they can nerf the primary dps weapons for the two worst dps melee classes for two teirs (horok and bw gloves) and also leave broken ranger dps alone for some reason.
No one is arguing that melee do lower DPS on high end mobs. The bane change was about consistency and item diversity. Melee falling behind in the highest tiers is a complex problem, spanning mana increases, fight durations, inappropriate spell resist scaling, too many caster-centric tome increases/too few melee and the desire to move combat away from just being autoattack.
Simply increasing all melee damage by X is not a good solution, given the roots of the problem. Bane was an even worse "solution"... to the point where it was not even a solution given all the periphery problems it caused.
Bane is now more balanced, does not require loot hoarding and stacking, and still gives a relatively large bonus when it is used correctly.
Read the rules. Tired of a handful of people shitting up actual discussion.
Simply increasing all melee damage by X is not a good solution, given the roots of the problem. Bane was an even worse "solution"... to the point where it was not even a solution given all the periphery problems it caused.
Bane is now more balanced, does not require loot hoarding and stacking, and still gives a relatively large bonus when it is used correctly.
Read the rules. Tired of a handful of people shitting up actual discussion.
Slaariel
*The Only Real Life Girl Dev*
I agree some people have too much DPS and others have too little as they advance in the game.
This change was about implementing a better bane system overall and nothing else.
I understand that the change lowered DPS on already-hurting melee classes.
Official Dev Word On The Subject: Rogues and Monks are not optimal DPS on highest-end content.
That is how it is right now.
No one wants it to stay this way, but that is how it is right now.
There are a lot of problems in the game and most do not have to do with rogue/monk DPS and the order in which we address problems is not always optimal (for anyone).
Fighting against Bane changes from the perspective of rogue / monk DPS, though, is pointless. Instead of fight against bane change, maybe fight for future rogue / monk changes. We all got ideas, but can use more.
"Increase DPS" is not an idea.
Okay I think that's everything.
This change was about implementing a better bane system overall and nothing else.
I understand that the change lowered DPS on already-hurting melee classes.
Official Dev Word On The Subject: Rogues and Monks are not optimal DPS on highest-end content.
That is how it is right now.
No one wants it to stay this way, but that is how it is right now.
There are a lot of problems in the game and most do not have to do with rogue/monk DPS and the order in which we address problems is not always optimal (for anyone).
Fighting against Bane changes from the perspective of rogue / monk DPS, though, is pointless. Instead of fight against bane change, maybe fight for future rogue / monk changes. We all got ideas, but can use more.
"Increase DPS" is not an idea.
Okay I think that's everything.
It does require loot hoarding, just a different kind of hoarding, and spread out over different foci. Having players from a tier 13 guild seriously contemplate backfarming tier 8 and 9 zones to get specific items that would otherwise be gigantic downgrades speaks to how item hoarding has shifted instead of disappeared. Simply increasing base dps may not be an optimal solution, but failing that I am curious as to what alternate solutions you have in mind to correct the dps imbalance you've exacerbated with this change.
e: this was typed up before Slaar's post, but it actually makes me more curious about how this will be resolved, since base dps increases seem to be off the table.
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Slaariel
*The Only Real Life Girl Dev*
Yeah, it's interesting and unfortunate that the tiers are so thin that you don't have but a few dozen items per tier. And for the highest tiers, this is even more apparent. Hard to space items out appropriately when there is no space! It's a continuing process, though.
I was about to respond very similarly. Until this whole thing is a finished product, I'm on the fence about it similarly to how I was (and kinda still am) about the combo system. That being said, while we don't have to plow through a ton of bounties now, I personally have made a list of quite a few items I either already wrote off or have already passed, that I'll be after all over again now.
Off this topic, is there somewhere I can look (instead of just asking and trying to get someone to explain), another forum thread or something, that better explains the whole bane dmg on armor thing? The statement "scales to 25 delay" I don't understand. Or is the new system relatively unknown at this point, and until it's finished there isn't really a way to calculate this outside of knowing the coding until it can be parsed and ballpark guessed? I can tell the higher monks aren't thrilled, but I kinda wanna know what I'm looking at before I make any huge judgment. Edit: I think it was kinda answered in another thread. It adds a % but the numbers are in flux. Good enough for now I guess.
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OK, look that is fair but you told me I was being shitty earlier and I provided concrete examples to show that I wasn't. Then you posted a chart and I again provided concrete examples that did not show up in your chart and I was ignored. I am really not trying to pick a fight, but when these item or class nerfs come in and they are so heavy handed as to completely break items. It feels like either the staff is not knowledgeable about the changes they are making or that they are being intentionally vindictive. I don't really think either of those things is the case but it is hard to come up with a third alternative, and it is hard not to take it personally even though it isn't. I apologize for the snippy remarks. but I would like you to look at those items I posted because I wasn't just saying that to be difficult.
dracosf22
Dalayan Elder
Ok, from my testing today I can see bane damage is indeed affecting procs and spells, but in no way is it affecting songs; be it: relic dot, poison dot, bellows all unaffected. Not sure if this is intentional or a side affect of songs not being affected by focus effects that aren't instrument mods. So far I have found that worn elemental damage works as a 3:1 ratio on bard dots, and a straight up add to the refuge song nuke. (as in 15 worn magic is +5 a tick on dots, and +15 to nuke)
I was also using http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Galeforce,_The_Eye's_Edge and
http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Symbol_of_Frost
to test out the Bane damage from http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Hellhound_Ring (Nature 6)
My test subject was http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/A_soothing_petal in Overgrowth
The Hurricane proc was doing 75 a tick without the bane damage mod, and 111 a tick with it.
Pogonip was doing 120 a tick, and 228 with the ring.
So I hope this helps, because I don't think its affecting melee vs spells the way you intended.
Hrm. Okay it looks like Bane is effecting spells the way we want BUT Bane Enhancement effects the amount of damage they add. Today is my long day so I have limited access to figure out whats going on my tablet.
Fidel, I appologize if I offended you by writing off your first comment. I (and a lot of other staff) are getting increasingly dissillusioned with talking through changes because of strident comments and hostility. Your tone was not the worst, but happened to be when I was going through changing the rules to try and civilize the discussion a bit.
The increase in bane damage is not linear - but at the same time the line of best fit definitely goes up. I thought showing a sample of the changed items would help to show that, not be taken as dismissive. If an item does not look like it is on the list, it is likely either a typo, or a conflict in what tiers are considered. The four of us doing the itemization would manually put in the tier of the mob using the wiki list, and I am sure there might be typos. We also did 6 man relatively quickly at the end, since the list we were using originally precluded it. I honestly thought that outlining what factors went in to bane amounts answered the heart of your question.
Are you asking about the items specifically and why they are what they are?
Fidel, I appologize if I offended you by writing off your first comment. I (and a lot of other staff) are getting increasingly dissillusioned with talking through changes because of strident comments and hostility. Your tone was not the worst, but happened to be when I was going through changing the rules to try and civilize the discussion a bit.
The increase in bane damage is not linear - but at the same time the line of best fit definitely goes up. I thought showing a sample of the changed items would help to show that, not be taken as dismissive. If an item does not look like it is on the list, it is likely either a typo, or a conflict in what tiers are considered. The four of us doing the itemization would manually put in the tier of the mob using the wiki list, and I am sure there might be typos. We also did 6 man relatively quickly at the end, since the list we were using originally precluded it. I honestly thought that outlining what factors went in to bane amounts answered the heart of your question.
Are you asking about the items specifically and why they are what they are?