Necros lack of Constant DPS

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Boramur

Dalayan Beginner
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Hello Wiz

My comment in ooc lastnight was not a whine, but frustration.
I totally agree ooc is not the place for that kinda comment, but the forums are.
Sorry if I pissed you off.

I’m using the spells that Wiz had referred to in a post dated Thu Dec 23, 2004 10:09 pm

I do not think the problem is raw dps, but constant dps, here is what I mean. DD is added in the damage.

Caress of Sivyana: 498/tick X 4 ticks 505 mana, 207 damage
Funeral Pyre of Malath:330/tick X 6 ticks 450 mana, 1980 damage
Hand of Kaezul: 160/tick X 9 ticks 520 mana, 1440 damage
Scitterpox: 145/tick X 18 ticks 525 mana, 2735 damage
Totals 1133/tick 2000 mana 8362 dam over 18 ticks

Embedding Darkness 60/tick X 24 ticks 425 mana, 1440 damage

Total 1193/tick 2425 mana 9802 dam over 24 ticks

The above looks great until you look at it closer.

To cast the above is approx 50% of my mana, and if I have to darken the mob, it is close to 60%

Now on the damage side of the house a necros dps drops rapidly, eg
Damage at the start 1133/tick
After 4 ticks it is now 635/tick,
after 6 ticks its 305/tick
after 9 ticks its 145/tick

So to maintain the constant dps I need to recast the spells as they wear off. The problem is I do not have the mana to maintain the dps. I’m also at least in the top 3 for necros for mana on the server. Please do not look at our pets, they die way to fast, and their dps is sucky. Fighting the boss in Everchill lastnight my pet died in about 1 min, and that’s using the mend pet AA on it.

Also for my spells to do their damage, the fight has to last 18 to 24 ticks!! Which in most cases does not happen. The mobs die a lot faster then that, so my only real spell to cast is my poison line, and throw in a lifetap for fun. Mobs that last 18 to 24 ticks are mobs that I am soling or are boss mobs when raiding, and guess what? I’m just pumping the healers. I do prefer groups then soling, I just want to add more dps to grouping.

There has been other comments like this made in the past, ref: an old post I copied.

Quote"
Sean Deemed Unfit for Human Consumption Joined: 13 Dec 2002Posts: Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Best class at sustained damage

joer80 wrote:
Rogue
Monk
Bst Lord
Necro <-----
Magician
Wizard
Ranger
-----> Not even close. If you're talking about constant DPS in a continual pull environment, Necro DPS is about equatable to a.. uh.. Druid, or something. The mana draw for all DoTs versus the damage they get out on a mob that dies quick (with the exception of Poison DoT changes) is absolutely pathetic. And don't look at Necro pets. They're just embarassing.
End Quote"

I don’t know any solutions Wiz other then shortening the ticks. I have mentioned a few times about an AA for Affliction,but have been shot down a few times, so I won’t got here again. I am just frustrated that I cannot maintain dps, and if soling I run out mana before the mobs dies. I feel useless a lot of the time. Its not because I don’t know how to play a necro, I played a necro for about 2 years on live and about 9 months on WR. I think most people will agree that I play a necro fairly well. (waits for all the rude comments..lol) I know all the tricks to playing a necro. I have worked around the lack of fear on the server, its not big deal in my eyes, yes fear would make it easier, but the problem I see on WR is the DPS issues.

Also there is only about 5 active necros on the server, yes there is some young ones, but they all seem to fade away for some reason……….

I’m not trying to compare to other classes or piss anyone off. I am just looking at Necros since that is all I play. I just want Wiz to have a look at this and get his and other Gms opinions.

Kindar Morgoth
Level 65 Necro
 
Sustained dps with any int caster class is very difficult to hold. It's not only common with necros however. Why do mages quit and change classes? I don't know one mage that's kept up after level 65 seriously as their main (I am one of those). Chanters, best raid buff bot there is. Necros, read above. You do hold a very good point Kindar, but I think that if your going to look into necros, mage/chanter should get some of that attention too...because obviously they don't seem better off.
 
OK, first of all, I'm going to throw up some classes for DPS comparision. This is what a well-geared character will do.

WARRIOR: 120 dps
MONK: 160 dps
ROGUE: 200 dps

A necro's L63 pet is ~50-60 DPS. For them to pull their weight as well as a monk in a group, they will need to punch out 600 damage/tick, or 100 DPS.

Caress of Sivyana is 498 damage. Add Affliction V to this, and it is now almost 600 damage.

Meaning that a necro that is just throwing caress and sicking their pet will do the same damage as a monk.

Now let us calc the max damage a necro can do with a combination of DoTs and affliction V.

Caress: 100 DPS
Scitterpox: 25 DPS
Pyre: 66 DPS
Pet: 50 DPS

That is 241 DPS, higher than a rogue's DPS, using 3 DoTs.

Caress, Scitterpox, Pyre, Pet, Embedding Darkness, Hand of Kaezul: 290 DPS.

Explain why you have a DPS problem again, please.
 
Maybe Kindar, on trash mobs only use one fast high damage DoT like caress. And on harder mobs do the same, or do your whole amazing DoT stacking thing..I'm not sure what is more benificial though on harder mobs. It would seem all your other DoTs aren't really needed if you have caress.

But I understand that it would stink to only get to use one DoT instead of all your others to bring out your best sustained DPS. However, not alot of other int classes are much better off. We all know how much chanters love to charm in groups :( (and how much the group healer doesn't want them to)
 
Now we'll do this for Wizards and Magicians too.

L65 Wizard, Damage V, AAed up, Chaos Vortex/Tarhyl's Embrace.

Chaos Vortex in itself is around 90 DPS, resists discounted. At a standard mana return of ~25 standing, that means they can also Tarhyl's every 2.5 minutes in a situation where there is no downtime, for an additional ~25 DPS, giving them damage output equal to a warrior, but with high burst potential when they have mana.

CONCLUSION: A wizard has warrior DPS when they have no mana regen, but high burst DPS.

L65 Magician, AAed up, using Shock of Sun/Storm of the Elements/Relic Pet.

The pet dishes out about 75 DPS (including its spell but not its DS). It will do an additional 25% when focus effects are finished, putting magicians at an equal level of sustainable DPS to wizards sheerly from using their pet. In a no-med situation they will gain around the same DPS from spells as a wizard as well. They have inferior burst DPS.

CONCLUSION: A magician has warrior DPS when they have no mana regen, and inferior burst DPS to a wizard. This is offset by the greater utility in my book.

For fair comparisions let's throw in a "casual" necro here. Let's assume the necro uses Master of Death for a casual standing mana regen of around 60, the level 63 pet for 50 DPS (25% to that with the coming focuses) and Caress of Sivyana/Hand of K (K to offset the drain of hp). They will be able to mince out two Sivyanas and 1 Hand every 20 ticks, which will roughly offset the HP loss. This gives them (with Affliction V) 1920 + 2640 + 2640 / 200 = 36 DPS + 50 DPS = 86 DPS right now, with a boost of another 15 DPS in the soon future, giving them around the same sustained DPS as the other int casters in a situation where they never can pause to med up, mind you, plus it doesn't take a necro's plethora of utility into account either.

This means all the "damage" int casters, IN THE WORST POSSIBLE SITUATION, will still do around 100 DPS, and that all "damage" int casters have a very high damage potential in a situation where it's needed. Now, this doesn't take into account the following:

Wizard: Familiar/Sword Pet, add 20 DPS
Magician: Better pet weapons, improved DPS from cheap rains, mod rod.
Necro: Mind Wrack which will double their mana regen (adding another 36 DPS) in a caster-mob situation.

ALL: A bard with mana regen song or other mana saving measures, the fact that in nearly all groups you get SOME sitting time, even if it's just a tick now and then.

If you see anything wrong with my numbers feel free to argue it.
 
Raherin said:
Maybe Kindar, on trash mobs only use one fast high damage DoT like caress. And on harder mobs do the same, or do your whole amazing DoT stacking thing..I'm not sure what is more benificial though on harder mobs. It would seem all your other DoTs aren't really needed if you have caress.

But I understand that it would stink to only get to use one DoT instead of all your others to bring out your best sustained DPS. However, not alot of other int classes are much better off. We all know how much chanters love to charm in groups :( (and how much the group healer doesn't want them to)
Click to expand...

It might suck to only use one DoT in exp groups, but the fact remains, a necro with ONE DoT + their pet will do the damage of a monk. I don't think that points to a class which is useless damage-wise.
 
actually i'm one of those healers who enjoy the uber charmer my guild has, leanna the might caster tank of pwn!!! so yea.. dont start crying for those poor chanters just yet :p
 
On the subject of magicians I just did some tests. The relic pet is almost 90 DPS on its own with just burnout. It will do 110 DPS when the focuses are put in...
 
I don't think you understood me Wiz, it is NOT the total damage, all though higher damage is better ;) It is the TIME it takes to do the damage.

In the example you gave, i don't know a Necro that can sustain that kinda DPS, just not enough mana.

your example takes 18 ticks to due that total damage, most mobs are dead well before that, and this is my point!

Is it possble to shorthen the duration? Eg, Scitter make it 9 ticks vs 18? i'm just trying to make myself more useful dps wise in a group, and to give me a better spell option, vs only having Caress to cast for dps.

Thanks for the info Wiz, didn't know 600/tick = 100 DPS

Kindar Morgoth
level 65 Necro
 
Boramur said:
I don't think you understood me Wiz, it is NOT the total damage, all though higher damage is better ;) It is the TIME it takes to do the damage.

In the example you gave, i don't know a Necro that can sustain that kinda DPS, just not enough mana.

your example takes 18 ticks to due that total damage, most mobs are dead well before that, and this is my point!

Is it possble to shorthen the duration? Eg, Scitter make it 9 ticks vs 18? i'm just trying to make myself more useful dps wise in a group, and to give me a better spell option, vs only having Caress to cast for dps.

Thanks for the info Wiz, didn't know 600/tick = 100 DPS

Kindar Morgoth
level 65 Necro
Click to expand...

My point was that you can do 150 DPS with just your 4-tick DoT, and something like 210 (rogue DPS) with just it and Funeral Pyre, which are both very fast DoTs.

You really shouldn't be doing 300 DPS constantly, stacking 7 DoTs is for hard solo or raid situations.
 
icehewk said:
Wiz said:
WARRIOR: 120 dps
MONK: 160 dps
ROGUE: 200 dps
Click to expand...

Where would a well geared ranger fit into this? Between war and monk?
Click to expand...

Anything from slightly below monk to slightly below rogue with a good bow and all bow AAs, depending on the quality of the arrows.
 
So no chance to get the tick duration shorthened?

Also with the new spells that you were talking about in ooc one night, any chance for a necro relic pet?

Kindar Morgoth
Level 65 Neco
 
Necro relic pet is coming. I'm probably going to rework disease DoTs in general, but I'm not 100% I'll shorten them, might just throw up the efficency.
 
necro dps

I know this is not live. However on live many necros were able to sustain a fair amount of dps while keeping their mana pool up, for upwards of 20 minutes. That was the strong point of a necro, longer duration fights. Perhaps lowering the mana cost of the necro dots by 20% or so would allow them to take this role on winters roar?
 
since you were considering the relic pet, any way you could look at necro pets in general and maybe up their lifetap by say 5-15 points per pet spell? the pet occasionally lifetapping for the amount of 45 at lvl 58 is sad when the mobs i fight are doubling for 100 just doesnt cut it anymore lol. im not sure but doesnt the lvl 63 pet also lifetap for only 45?
 
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