my view on the Req lvl for all weapons
- Thread starter Laksha
- Start date
Sir this is different then docking xp from people healing outside of the group and all the other changes. Though I was not arround during that change i'm sure was more intended to encourage grouping and which I belive that Wiz and staff should try to encourage grouping.
Now this change was not intended at least as far as I can see not intended to help encourage grouping. It has the effect of making it more difficult and annoying for people that want to have some melee alt to level them, or if someone has a buddy that wants to start here it prevents them from helping them getting decent dps weapons right away, IE 1/3 ratio weapons. I'm by no means saying that the sword of leetness or whatever shouldn't have recommended/required levels on them. But in my humble opinion this has gone too far.
Earlier today I was running by a group in mielech b that was approximately level 40, they were killing a mob that dropped a weapon that none could use till level 55. Then you look at lets say the adept in centuar hills, apparently it has a level requirement of being 26 or so. So at least some of these weapons can be gotten by groups of untwinked characters and still people that win the random can not use the weapons for sometimes 10 - 15 more levels.
Now this change was not intended at least as far as I can see not intended to help encourage grouping. It has the effect of making it more difficult and annoying for people that want to have some melee alt to level them, or if someone has a buddy that wants to start here it prevents them from helping them getting decent dps weapons right away, IE 1/3 ratio weapons. I'm by no means saying that the sword of leetness or whatever shouldn't have recommended/required levels on them. But in my humble opinion this has gone too far.
Earlier today I was running by a group in mielech b that was approximately level 40, they were killing a mob that dropped a weapon that none could use till level 55. Then you look at lets say the adept in centuar hills, apparently it has a level requirement of being 26 or so. So at least some of these weapons can be gotten by groups of untwinked characters and still people that win the random can not use the weapons for sometimes 10 - 15 more levels.
Sir that was just an example i'm sure there are many more that will be changed once someone takes a look at the item and the difficulty of the mob that drops it. My real concern is that this changing is more likely to discourage people from starting an alt to putz around on when their main gets stale. Also this will be bad for the economy of the game. I'm sure none of you want to be bored with my reasoning on why this changing will be bad for the economy but if you truelly are i'm sure i could make a condensed version for your consumption.
Wiz
NOT DONATING *EVER*
People can make an alt to "putz around on" without putting a 15/25 weapon on it, amazingly enough, and weapons aren't a large enough portion of items traded between players to make a very big dent in the econony, in fact most of it is armor, people tend to have old weapons sitting around to twink their alts with (or using the alt to loot rotting raid gear) rather than buying twink weapons.
Not allowing aegolism on level 1 characters probably discourages some people from making alts too.
The thing is that you can get more effect out of one twink weapon than you can get out of a whole suit of armor at lower levels. Having a 10/20 weapon means you are twice as powerful as someone with a 10/40 weapon. Yeah, it's easy to multiruple hit points if you spend enough time on getting twink armor, but that takes a lot more effort and has a much lesser impact per piece, and is also mitigated with levels, unlike a twink weapon.
A little twinking isn't bad, but it's just too easy and too powerful to twink with weapons.
Not allowing aegolism on level 1 characters probably discourages some people from making alts too.
The thing is that you can get more effect out of one twink weapon than you can get out of a whole suit of armor at lower levels. Having a 10/20 weapon means you are twice as powerful as someone with a 10/40 weapon. Yeah, it's easy to multiruple hit points if you spend enough time on getting twink armor, but that takes a lot more effort and has a much lesser impact per piece, and is also mitigated with levels, unlike a twink weapon.
A little twinking isn't bad, but it's just too easy and too powerful to twink with weapons.
Wiz said:
It's true that twink weapons perform increasingly better as you level, unlike armor, but the gap of power still decreases considerably to the point that you don't feel 'uber'. Once you reach those lvls everyone has comparable weapons and the mobs are balanced for that equipment.
I'm not trying to say that some weapons shouldn't have a level requirements on them, my position is that this change has went to far. Personally I think that weapons that drop off mobs under 40 - 50 somewhere in that range shouldn't have level requirements besides maybe a select few. A solution that might be acceptable would instead of putting required levels on them to implement a recommend level on many of these weapons, though i'm not sure if that is feasable.
Wiz while the majority of items being sold will be armor and not weapons because there are more slots, but from my personal experience when i started on this server and was mid 30 - 50 or so selling the items i got while grouping the items that sold the fastest and got the most tells everytime was the weapons. Weapons that I acquired in groups sold within 15 or 20 minutes nearly 75% of the time. The armor probably only sold approximately 30 - 40% within that same period. People are much more likely to spend their plat they earned on what will make the biggest difference for the characters and that happens to be weapons for melee characters, just like casters are much more likely to spend their plat on items with focuses on them..
Wiz while the majority of items being sold will be armor and not weapons because there are more slots, but from my personal experience when i started on this server and was mid 30 - 50 or so selling the items i got while grouping the items that sold the fastest and got the most tells everytime was the weapons. Weapons that I acquired in groups sold within 15 or 20 minutes nearly 75% of the time. The armor probably only sold approximately 30 - 40% within that same period. People are much more likely to spend their plat they earned on what will make the biggest difference for the characters and that happens to be weapons for melee characters, just like casters are much more likely to spend their plat on items with focuses on them..
Wiz
NOT DONATING *EVER*
Haphesto said:
You didn't get my point. Having 300 hp on your armor makes you 10 x more powerful if you have 30hp (level ~2) but only twice as powerful once you hit 10 or so and have around 300hp naturally, and maybe only 50% more powerful once you're level 20 - and it takes a boatload more effort than to just grab a 12/20 weapon which still has you twice as powerful as someone with a proper level weapon around level 20-30.
And no, level 25 mobs are not balanced for 12/20 weapons, they are balanced for 6-7 / 20 weapons.
Wiz
NOT DONATING *EVER*
Haphesto said:
Well, okay, but it's not even comparable. A 12/20 weapon is still decent even at level 65, and before we started adding in required levels, it was what a lot of level 5s had. When we started adding required levels back then, the same complaints and arguments were thrown around (and somehow the server survived
). Ultimately it boils down to combating mudflation.I think the required levels are a little too high on weapons that fall into the 1:3 - 1:2 range right now, and intend to tweak it, but a 1:2 1hander should have a cutoff of level 40 or so, because it's way too powerful before then.
Wiz
NOT DONATING *EVER*
Haphesto said:The lvl reqs are, in a sense, communism. They force everyone to be the same so that no one may stand out, no one may enjoy the fruits of their labor, no one may be uber during their short stay in the low levels. How positively delightful.
Were lvl reqs added to encourage grouping? I've seen twinks running around solo being healed by their lvl 65 druid/cleric alt. While this was annoying to see once in a while, it didn't ruin my game experience or make me think OMFG ADD LVL REQS
For those who like to group, twinking adds variety to the game and variety = replayability. With lvl reqs, I know that the warrior/monk in my group will predictably have a certain weapon that is the best ratio for their lvl, deal a certain ammount of damage, and all the others will be just like him/her. I also know that if I make a warrior, he will be exactly the same. Predictability = Boring. I like seeing a monk in my group wielding a 2HB of Swift Pulpification sometimes. I like the variety of being able to kill harder mobs as a result. The next time I group, that twink probably wont be there, and it's back to the regular slower/easier grind, which is a change of pace and therefor more fun again.
The main vibe I get from people against twinking just boils down to envy. It's okay to be envious, just understand that that twink was once penniless as well. That twink worked hard on their untwinked first character or two and gained wealth/items that could be applied to their new characters so the next trip through the lvl grind would be different.
Please remove these lvl reqs, twinking is half the fun of this game.
I would just like to take a moment to point out that this argument is an utter atrocity of strawmen, hyperbole and practically every other argumental fallacy known to man. Good god what a terrible post. That MUST have sounded better in your head.
Zhak Morris
Dalayan Beginner
A very, very, very low end level 65, mind you.
Wiz
NOT DONATING *EVER*
Zhak Morris said:
The beginning of 65 (pre raid gear), and that's enough to draw a conclusive argument that the falloff rate of weapon power is nowhere near the falloff rate of armor.
It wasn't like random alts weren't looting stuff like Wretches anyway, prior to required level nerfable.
Wiz said:
Hahahaha. It still sounds perfectly logical to me.
The essence of communism = Making everyone more or less equal
Twinking =Variety of equipment
Variety = replayability, choice = good
Opposite of variety = Sameness, predictability
Predictability = Same ole, same ole, boring = bad
Opposite of bad = Good
Twinking = Fun
Fun = Good
Lol. I'm very envious. I have enough plat to make some pretty damn good twinks, but I don't. But yeah, I'm very envious.
Also some consider the 'fruits of their labour' to be having a high level characer/s with raid gear.
Please note that you can still twink your alts, it's not like twinking was taken away, christ.
Zhak Morris
Dalayan Beginner
Man, no shit.
Haphesto.. it was a nice try but you failed miserably.