mellee crits and nots.

[charlie2999]

Hey.
So i was fighting along yesterday and this guy beside me was critting pretty nicely and i started feeling a little left out that i dont have mellee crits and considered making an alt warrior so i would get them as well.. Well to my surprise when commenting on this in the grp it turns out that he was a Paladin!

For most of you im sure you already knew that paladins can critical here on SoD but it was news to me, as an SK im offcourse jealous that my light-bringing-always-so-frikin-good counterpart can cause critical hits as an innate skill and not me.

When i asked in ooc about this i got some arguments that the paladins were placed in between a warrior and an sk and needed something else to set them apart..

BOLLOCKS!! the paladins have frikkin cheals, lull to some extent, they can group heal, rezzurect dead idiots, stun, hp buff.. Given that i dont like the paladin class (just think they are booring).. i dont think you can say they needed criticals to set them apart.. all sks are good at is keeping agro and im not sure they are much at this than paladins, they have LT's but what are those compared to cheals.. (i think you see what im getting at?)

Basically im wondering what it was that paladins were so bad at that they needed crits to make up for it..
If nothing else i just want crits for SK's aswell

//Charlie2999
p.s. don't kill me / ban me / jail me .. please

 

[Tempus]

Hey.
So i was fighting along yesterday and this guy beside me was critting pretty nicely and i started feeling a little left out that i dont have mellee crits and considered making an alt warrior so i would get them as well.. Well to my surprise when commenting on this in the grp it turns out that he was a Paladin!

For most of you im sure you already knew that paladins can critical here on SoD but it was news to me, as an SK im offcourse jealous that my light-bringing-always-so-frikin-good counterpart can cause critical hits as an innate skill and not me.

When i asked in ooc about this i got some arguments that the paladins were placed in between a warrior and an sk and needed something else to set them apart..

BOLLOCKS!! the paladins have frikkin cheals, lull to some extent, they can group heal, rezzurect dead idiots, stun, hp buff.. Given that i dont like the paladin class (just think they are booring).. i dont think you can say they needed criticals to set them apart.. all sks are good at is keeping agro and im not sure they are much at this than paladins, they have LT's but what are those compared to cheals.. (i think you see what im getting at?)

Basically im wondering what it was that paladins were so bad at that they needed crits to make up for it..
If nothing else i just want crits for SK's aswell

//Charlie2999
p.s. don't kill me / ban me / jail me .. please

Found via a quick search: http://forum.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php?topic=9156.0

This is not the place to debate whether or not Paladins or Shadow Knights are better at X or Y. THat is just the reasoning behind why they get criticals and you don't without AA's or Crit Strike gear.

 

[LuminaryX]

well this is SoD discussion so you can't exactly blame him for posting this here since it technically is relevant


but anyways I am in 100% agreement with him especially considering that paladins can do cleansing blows to undead which just makes them having regular crits quite ridiculous

what it really should be is EVERY melee should be able to crit but the frequency between all of the classes should be different(wars should be top, followed by monks/rogues, followed by paladins/sk's/rangers)

should be the same thing with casters as well too

all healers should be able to do exceptional heals but clerics should do it the most frequently then druids/shamans then hybrids

wizards for critical blasts followed by magician/enchanter and just give necro's dots chances to crit etc



thats honestly the more logical and balancing way to do it since it doesn't make any sense with the current method but hey, whatever floats your boat

 

[Renshu]

what it really should be is EVERY melee should be able to crit but the frequency between all of the classes should be different(wars should be top, followed by monks/rogues, followed by paladins/sk's/rangers)

all healers should be able to do exceptional heals but clerics should do it the most frequently then druids/shamans then hybrids

See alternate advancement.

 

[robopirateninja]

well this is SoD discussion so you can't exactly blame him for posting this here since it technically is relevant

why would you respond to a gm telling you not to debate this topic with a debate on this topic?

anyways, class balance is probably better postedin the class discussion forum, or if you have a game balance suggestion, post it in http://forum.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php?topic=8923.0 but probably think it through a little more or else nothing will come of it.

 

[Mythryn]

I personally don't think SKs need more crits to balance things out. From a 'lore' perspective, we aren't meant to do super damage (see the thread Tempus linked), but are supposed to trick/manipulate opponents, which we pretty much totally lack. I would rather see a change to that, our tanking, or our agro than flashy bling bling crits.

 

[stope21]

2 very important abilities Sk's have that Pally's do not.

1) The ability to FD/Pull (I dont think I need to get into how good this ability is).
2) Dots (increase your dps, similiar to paladins doing more dps by being able to innatly crit and crit on dead).

Consider these abilities of SK's. If you still think SK's are inferior, please let me know.

 

[stope21]

Actually, i think rangers should get FD, Group heals, ability to cast Archaic: Moon Comet. My basis for this, is because paladins can divine aura.

 

[Mythryn]

2 very important abilities Sk's have that Pally's do not.

1) The ability to FD/Pull (I dont think I need to get into how good this ability is).
2) Dots (increase your dps, similiar to paladins doing more dps by being able to innatly crit and crit on dead).

Consider these abilities of SK's. If you still think SK's are inferior, please let me know.

Are you serious? :[

 

[stope21]

Are you serious? :[

Huh.. what?

The guy was saying in short, "No fair, Pally's can crit" and i'm saying from a pally's point of veiw, "No fair, SK's can FD and DoT." Thus its fair.

P.S.
"Are you serious?" and "Huh.. what" are both very ambigous. It would greatly help me and all others who read your post if you stated why you disagree/agreed/what your thoughts are, other then asking me if im serious. Which to answer you, I am... I guess?

 

[Nepentheia]

Hey.
So i was fighting along yesterday and this guy beside me was critting pretty nicely and i started feeling a little left out that i dont have mellee crits and considered making an alt warrior so i would get them as well.. Well to my surprise when commenting on this in the grp it turns out that he was a Paladin!

For most of you im sure you already knew that paladins can critical here on SoD but it was news to me, as an SK im offcourse jealous that my light-bringing-always-so-frikin-good counterpart can cause critical hits as an innate skill and not me.

When i asked in ooc about this i got some arguments that the paladins were placed in between a warrior and an sk and needed something else to set them apart..

BOLLOCKS!! the paladins have frikkin cheals, lull to some extent, they can group heal, rezzurect dead idiots, stun, hp buff.. Given that i dont like the paladin class (just think they are booring).. i dont think you can say they needed criticals to set them apart.. all sks are good at is keeping agro and im not sure they are much at this than paladins, they have LT's but what are those compared to cheals.. (i think you see what im getting at?)

Basically im wondering what it was that paladins were so bad at that they needed crits to make up for it..
If nothing else i just want crits for SK's aswell

//Charlie2999
p.s. don't kill me / ban me / jail me .. please

If you are Teyc in game, Dev-Zae already answered your question in game yesterday, as did players (apparently you refer to those answers as 'some arguments'). Here's a snippet of the conversation, just in case your memory failed you...:

[Fri Feb 22 04:28:01 2008] Teyc says out of character, 'why does sk not crit, when pally does ?'
[Fri Feb 22 04:29:09 2008] Teyc says out of character, 'was playing with a pally same level, he was critting, im not =/'
[Fri Feb 22 04:29:10 2008] Sley says out of character, 'the crits are from AA '
[Fri Feb 22 04:29:16 2008] Dev-Zae says out of character, 'paladins get natural crits, sk don't'
[Fri Feb 22 04:29:26 2008] Teyc says out of character, 'he was 14 . and critting, im 14 and havent seen one'
[Fri Feb 22 04:29:29 2008] Valanth says out of character, 'why zae ?'
[Fri Feb 22 04:30:57 2008] Teyc says out of character, 'whats the reasoning behind the pallys get crits sks dont? do sks get something else to weight it up instead?'
[Fri Feb 22 04:31:05 2008] Dev-Zae says out of character, 'paladins were given melee boosts in the form of natural crits, +crit style and a base melee damage AA to make up for being kinda wedged between SKs being super-agro tanks and Wars being super absorbent tanks'
[Fri Feb 22 04:31:32 2008] Teyc says out of character, 'i c , im still jealous though =P'

 

[volvov2]

Are you serious? :[

Jose you know its pretty much fruitless. :dumb:

 

[Manguadi]

Are you SKs seriously disappointed with how you stack up compared to paladins? This doesn't even seem like a grass is greener kinda thing, since comparing an sk to a paladin is like comparing a rogue and a ranger; they have the same job, but they accomplish it in dramatically different ways. I'm not even sure how you could demonstrate that paladins are better than SKs, since they don't match up in so many ways.

I think the two classes are different enough that complaining about their relative power is basically saying you'd rather be the other class.

 

[Mythryn]

Are you SKs seriously disappointed with how you stack up compared to paladins? This doesn't even seem like a grass is greener kinda thing, since comparing an sk to a paladin is like comparing a rogue and a ranger; they have the same job, but they accomplish it in dramatically different ways. I'm not even sure how you could demonstrate that paladins are better than SKs, since they don't match up in so many ways.

I think the two classes are different enough that complaining about their relative power is basically saying you'd rather be the other class.

Uh, pull 12 mobs, see who holds agro longer. Put them in a soloing situation, see who lasts longer. Pit them in a duel against each other, see who wins.

They don't accomplish things in dramatically different ways, they do the same thing (tank) the same way. Click mob, click agro. Paladins can also click and agro XX number of mobs. SKs can FD sure. Useful? Yes. Paladins can lull/pacify to split just as easily, and if all else fails, they can just tank all of that group of mobs, and heal their group while getting agro.

Regardless, it's obvious you haven't played either class, and wouldn't know where to start looking for the flaws.

 

[Manguadi]

Uh, pull 12 mobs, see who holds agro longer. Put them in a soloing situation, see who lasts longer. Pit them in a duel against each other, see who wins.

Yep. You've exposed the weaknesses of SKs very well here. IIRC several devs have stated that SKs were designed to do these very things better than paladins.

They don't accomplish things in dramatically different ways, they do the same thing (tank) the same way. Click mob, click agro. Paladins can also click and agro XX number of mobs. SKs can FD sure. Useful? Yes. Paladins can lull/pacify to split just as easily, and if all else fails, they can just tank all of that group of mobs, and heal their group while getting agro.

Let's ignore the part about this game where paladins become able to tank 12 things at once (raiding) and talk exclusively about the things that paladins do better. Then it will be really obvious which class is better.

Regardless, it's obvious you haven't played either class, and wouldn't know where to start looking for the flaws.

I also like to end every argument by dismissing people. It makes it easier to think I'm right when everyone I talk to is an idiot!

All fun aside, paladins are probably the single most desirable class to have in an xp group. However, if not for SSS and encounters designed to produce swarms of mobs to annoy your healers, a paladin wouldn't even have a place on a raid. Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that SKs are undervalued on raids as it is. A decent SK will never lose aggro, so even if healers have to dump mana on keeping him or her alive, your DPS can go nuts all over a mob, and your healers will probably end up with more mana than they did with your warrior tank. And seriously, how much fun is grouping and grinding XP that it's all you'd address to try and convince me that paladins are everything and SK wishes he was.

 

[Syalara]

A decent SK will never lose aggro, so even if healers have to dump mana on keeping him or her alive, your DPS can go nuts all over a mob..

This is what alot of people think, and they are horribly, horribly wrong. Wait till your DPS casters are tossing out 5k+ nukes and rangers and rogues hit for ungodly amounts. Pally agro is far superior in the top end outside of a few encounters where foelock or an sk is needed due to resists.

SK's need some attention, there is no question.

 

[shanoma]

Actually, i think rangers should get FD, Group heals, ability to cast Archaic: Moon Comet. My basis for this, is because paladins can divine aura.

I support the above statement, BUT, ranger comet should cost 1 mana and have an instant recast.

 

[Wiz]

This is what alot of people think, and they are horribly, horribly wrong. Wait till your DPS casters are tossing out 5k+ nukes and rangers and rogues hit for ungodly amounts. Pally agro is far superior in the top end outside of a few encounters where foelock or an sk is needed due to resists.

SK's need some attention, there is no question.

How exactly is paladin aggro superior? Blind isn't that fantastic aggro and it's not like they're gonna land stun a lot.

 

[Temellin]

Their DPS, stuns, and blinds are actually pretty fantastic aggro, and the fact that they have AoE ones makes the own SKs sideways when it comes to more then one mob being pulled because they can just pop off a few AoE's to get aggro np.

SKs however have less aggro being generated by their DPS, good single target aggro (But it's able to be stolen by Paladins) and no means of controlling 3+ mobs in any manner. So it boils down to SKs being ok at aggro, warriors with Foe lock do about the same job, not that great at DPS, and unable to handle alot of mobs at once.

They aren't horrible or anything, they have FD, some nice recourses, and all that jazz, they just don't have what it takes to over pass how wonderful paladins are.

 

[Wiz]

OK, after discussing with staff, I will be killing almost all aggro on AE heals for Paladins, for a start.