Make the Murk Town a Real City

DodoBot

Dalayan Elder
Every time I go through the murk, I am shocked that despite its size and number of quests, the Gruplok murk town has nothing to convince you it's actually a functioning city. There are very few vendors, no guilds, no bank, and nothing to indicate any interaction with anything outside of town. I know Kaezul is cruel and oppressive, but to me this makes no sense and just seems unfinished and bad.

Easy Fixes to this Issue (add the following NPCs to the town, for that matter add these to the refuge as well)...
  • Banker
  • Inn vendor (someone who sells food/drink, shovels, bandages, etc)
  • Reagent vendors (even Gruploks don't cast spells in a vacuum)
Things which require more thought...
  • Tradeskill vendors in town. The fact that there is a quest for each tradeskill in the murk indicates that they should have vendors who support making things...
  • Actual tradeskill containers in town... oven, brew barrel, forge, pottery wheel, etc...
  • Class guilds: (more for flavor than anything else), I think there should be at least one or two guilds for classes we know Gruploks can take... rogue anyone?
Why this ought to happen...
  • Getting to the city for a new player is a massive disappointment. There is all this content but no depth or utility. The entire murk faction feels flat and unfinished. You literally only do it for your spell and shield.
  • For anyone who doesn't have gate necks, dealing with the murk is a massive hassle, and this provides yet another unnecessary barrier to people transitioning from fresh 65 into "advanced toons"
  • Even if you have all of your faction and necks, leaving Ikisith to pull a quest item out of the bank is immensely frustrating and unnecessary.
  • Raids on Ikisith content (especially lower tier world mobs), would be much simpler if banks and reagent vendors were available on site.
Edits: Revising by consensus... Also, there is a food/drink vendor in the first house on the left, but he doesn't have any generic inn merchant items - could a few of those be added to him (shovel, bandages, bags, etc)?
 
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I can tell you that a dev once wrote a novella in irc on how the frogs are in fact meant to be a village of frogs and not a city. and that no amount of pleading or attempting to justify any change to frog town ever made them surrender an inch.

glurp



Also I think having non cities is fine. It sucks but in the end its just an incentive to complete the dumb gate neck quests.


Did they remove the ability to bank in the emerald jungle or something?

It just makes sense from the lore and the scope of the zone that the zone have this...

How does it make sense. The whole point of ikisith is the only colonization involves a bunch of lizards that hate everybody and a bunch of dark elves who also hate everybody. Insert some magical bullshit about bank item wormholes existing in athica and other major cities but lore wise there is nobody aside from a handful of adventurers from the mainland on ikisith, last I checked.
 
Did they remove the ability to bank in the emerald jungle or something?
No, that's still there... assuming you are 5th seeker flagged and able to summon the pet... this is arguing from the perspective of someone who already has advanced characters, not someone who is in DB and just starting Ikisith for the first time.

How does it make sense. The whole point of ikisith is the only colonization involves a bunch of lizards that hate everybody and a bunch of dark elves who also hate everybody. Insert some magical bullshit about bank item wormholes existing in athica and other major cities but lore wise there is nobody aside from a handful of adventurers from the mainland on ikisith, last I checked.
All points about the nature of banking in MMOs aside, the Gruploks are clearly an organized society which is native to the continent and is at least as old as the other residents. I don't think it makes sense to say they have all this infrastructure and master tradesmen in their settlement but absolutely nobody who offers basic supplies or services. If you want to say the place is a village, not a big city - fine... but are there seriously no shovels, bandages, etc in the whole town?

The first time I got flagged for the village, I went from being excited to underwhelmed very quickly. I'm not saying the place should be Newport, but I'm saying that it's ridiculous that after all this time, there still is no one to bank with or buy things from. Saying that it's an incentive to do gate necks doesn't really add anything to the argument about the nature of the city. The fact is, there are a million reasons to do gate necks, but the lack of usability of an entire continent is just one more reason that newer players get turned off on this game. There is no reason that there can't be a generic inn merchant. What would be the actual downside of putting that and a bank in the zone?
 
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I was about to comment that it made no sense from a lore perspective before I even read that last line of the op, heh. It's basically an outdoor zone, that has a village in it. It's not supposed to be a organized functioning city. A case for the refuge might be easier to make, but neither of these are supposed to be functioning towns. I just now read the gugrible comment, but you might notice that remnants isn't so close to kaezulian presence, and they might even mention that during the quest lore. The murk, not only has a kaezulian presence, with village oppression mentioned throughout the lore in those quests, but it even used to have (I only assume it was removed since I haven't seen it happen in a long time) an occasional event, where a group of kaezulians would do a patrol run through the town and slaughter you if they saw you. They really don't have all this infrustructure you mention. The things that they do have are all basically underground type stuff.

It would be nice for sure, and maybe a better case can be written in with more ikisith expansion, but the lore throughout those quests kinda argues against you at every turn. You might be better served trying to get another vendor in say prophets, or maybe a rebellion boat zone with banks and such, but I'll be surprised if you get much traction on transforming the village in the murk to an actual town, as a ton of stuff would have to be written in or re-written.
 
My immersions broken enough by not being able to walk into cabilis as an iksar, I don't want no frog touching my never to be used quest peices. I agree its annoyance but my immersion and world building or some shit. Wheres my grobb mansion of portals.
 
Yeah, I'm going to have to chime in on the side of the lore being against this. Those poor frogs are so run down, the craftsmen there are no 'masters' but they do have tiny fragments of their heritage intact, and it takes quite a bit to be able get the frogs to respond to anything with hope. Perhaps there will be a shift in power once the adventurers of Dalaya step from outside of the shadows in Ikisith and start bringing the fight directly to the Kaezulians, but until then, you'll have to bring the infrastructure with you, because Ikisith is like the untamed wild west of SoD.
 
Yeah, the frogs in the Murk are living in a total shithole. Think of the dubious quest. That was impressive to them! Now it does seem that as the adventurers help out the frogs that some semblance of civilization should have crept back in. Maybe this oversight will be corrected in phase 2? Even then, only the "Easy Fixes" in the OP should probably ever go into the game. It is still a crappy village in the middle of a swamp afterall.
 
Allright, so the consensus appears that a fully equipped society is a bit much for the poor Gruploks, but I'm still going to maintain that if they have been dealing with outlanders for awhile now and they have the capacity to provide a vendor in Remnants, the frog village should at least be able to provide provisions and a place to put your stuff. All of these points still hold...

Easy Fixes to this Issue (add the following NPCs to the town, for that matter add these to the refuge as well)...
  • Banker
  • Inn vendor (someone who sells food/drink, shovels, bandages, etc)
  • Reagent vendors (even Gruploks don't cast spells in a vacuum)
Why this ought to happen...
  • Getting to the city for a new player is a massive disappointment. There is all this content but no depth or utility. The entire murk faction feels flat and unfinished. You literally only do it for your spell and shield.
  • For anyone who doesn't have gate necks, dealing with the murk is a massive hassle, and this provides yet another unnecessary barrier to people transitioning from fresh 65 into "advanced toons"
  • Even if you have all of your faction and necks, leaving Ikisith to pull a quest item out of the bank is immensely frustrating and unnecessary.
  • Raids on Ikisith content (especially lower tier world mobs), would be much simpler if banks and reagent vendors were available on site.
None of these smaller ideas are counter to lore, and they serve to make transitional content MUCH more accessible.
 
Those are exactly the ideas counter to the lore. Getting in to Ikisith is not supposed to be easy. If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen, sort of thing.


Lets break it down, w/o using anything past the wiki, so as to not spoil any of the other lore for anyone else:

Banker:
The banking system is a mystical-arcane system, if we were able to attach it to Ikisith, we could send messages, weapons, etc. across the continents, and probably alert the Kaezulians in the process, which is something we are trying to avoid as Seekers. I'd love to be 'the arsenal of democracy' for Ikisith, but that's not a thing yet. You will also notice that the only banking option in Ikisith is an artifact from the Old World, and not Ikisith in origin, meaning you had to bring the bank with you, fairly literally. Remember, the bankers and such have never had contact with Ikisith, only the adventurers go there at great risk and with Shaina's blessing.

Inn Vendor:
"Rations Distributor Gralak tells you, 'I would be glad to shake your hand. Haha! Yes, you certainly got us out of a spot - I had nearly driven myself mad trying to find something, anything we could use to eat. I kept going over the same numbers in my head, knowing we'd only be able to feed half the town at most for the day and then have nothing left for the next, knowing too that all my ventures and all the headman's suggestions had failed to turn up another supply"

These people can barely feed themselves, much less adventurers. Or have tools to sell.

Reagent Vendors:

When was the last time you saw a Gruplok spellcaster? I can think of trappers, historians, lamplighters, and poets, but any magical abilities they have come from their old histories or other artifacts. They have skills, but none of them seem to lean towards the arcane in that sense. If they could spare the manpower past getting their basic daily supplies to pick up a few shiny rocks to sell, I'm sure they would, but you can only find so much in the swamp.

Trade-skill Containers:
"Healer Kathrinka tells you, 'Alchemy? Well, of course, it is the healer's stock and trade. But.. as I have explained, there are no wonders I can work with my meager powers......My mentor spoke of a powerful healing mixture, made with common ingredients from these lands. This was ages ago, when the Gruplok could move freely about the continent. Still.. I have seen you come and go as you please, so you may be the ray of hope. I need only a pulsating co`dair bladder and a handful of glowing moss. And, though it pains me to ask-.. 'I need.. an ordinary potion of healing to use as a base. This should be a small task for a healer, but as you see... Thank you for this kindness and good luck.'"

So yeah, she doesn't heal with magic and is no master craftsman (going back to some previous points) But literally can't even make a healing potion with the tools on hand. And on the tailoring one, you need to complete an earlier quest that helps the Gruplok tailor make a loom, she didn't have one before.

----

The Gruploks really don't have anything, if anything we need to help them more, so that maybe they could do these things later. I would love to see further quests there, and there's plenty of room for it, to maybe begin to rebuild the Gruplok society, but just adding those in there for convenience? I feel that's fairly counter-intuitive. I love the Gruplok city, there's lots to do there, if your still underwhelmed, I think you should take another look at all the things you can do there.


And before you bring up the Remnants vendor again:

"Gugruble tells you, 'When I was back in the Murk, all I wanted was to leave. I thought nothing could be worse. But I hate it here and I'm starving. I do know how to cook a thing or two, but considering we have nothing more edible than thse leather straps, it is all for naught."

He makes some food out there, which is why he can vendor some. But he left the rest of Gruplok society for a bit.
 
Marthog,

I definitely appreciate the effort going into researching the lore. It has been long enough of a time for me that I had forgotten a lot of the dialogue. You're making a good case for the Gruploks being poor. Let's pare this down a bit to what I see as the biggest problems then and see if anyone has an idea on if it is addressable within the context of the lore (or if it's reasonable to see their society progress a little bit since the influx of adventures has been there for quite awhile...).

Problem
  • No ability to bank in Ikisith. No reagent or supply vendors. Logistically, it makes things inconvenient for anyone who is coming up doing the quests there.
  • Nothing to greet new players upon arrival. Even after getting non-kos, there is no central hub or support structure for players on the continent. This makes long term logistics (when items are banked) a pain in the neck and forces gate necks on new players instead of bringing them into a living world.
  • Lore doesn't support any sort of progress from what you're showing me.
So, if the Gruploks (and presumably the refuge) don't have access to nice things but the above are still issues, what could be done to fix it (properly)?
  • The seekers have a vested interest in what's going on in the continent. Would it be possible to create a seeker supply outpost somewhere on the continent which provides a bind spot for new players and similar functionality for what we were talking about?
  • Given the amount of time players have been in Ikisith, is it reasonable to assume some sort of progress has bee made for either the Gruploks or the Rebellion (refuge)? Even if this were to take some sort of major change or event to make this a reality, the place has no sort of hub beyond questing. Isn't it about time we do a little bit of civilizing?
  • Or should things expect to never advance despite the best efforts of a player driven army on the continent?
Any ideas there?
 
I almost went looking for Mart instead of posting in the first place, heh. It's almost a wait for Iki 2.0 or some form of progress in the Ikisith expansion in general. There has been progress made through what's there, but as long as Kaezul is still in pretty solid control, it stands to reason that any outpost or any major progress with what's already there will have to take place once some more damage is done to the power structure that will just destroy it as it is revealed. (kinda why I mentioned a boat that could possibly haul ass and bail, heh)
 
You will also notice that the only banking option in Ikisith is an artifact from the Old World, and not Ikisith in origin, meaning you had to bring the bank with you

Which couldn't be shared with the Frogs because everyone knows they'd just blow all the money on smaller frogs to lick.
 
?
You can bank in emerald jungle
You can buy food/drink in frog town
Not sure about reagent vendors....I've never looked.
 
I agree with Marthog and the lore point of view. There is no reason (at present) that the frogs or refuge should have bankers, supply vendors, etc. They are barely surviving. and the whole unfolding portal business really ties in well with lore about banking. Until the gruplok master magic and can survive on their own, none of these comfort features should show up in the Murk or Remnants.
 
I agree with Marthog and the lore point of view. There is no reason (at present) that the frogs or refuge should have bankers, supply vendors, etc. They are barely surviving. and the whole unfolding portal business really ties in well with lore about banking. Until the gruplok master magic and can survive on their own, none of these comfort features should show up in the Murk or Remnants.
How about because it is a giant pain in the ass to get to an entire expansion and a real botch to bank.
 

Not sure that banking is logistically all that much harder than any number of other quest-hub zones. To a new player, excluding the use of portal clickies or port classes, the Murk is 5 zonelines away from a bank (Murk > Prophet's Landing > NWoT > Oasis > Sundered > Sadri), while Heartlands is 4 zones away from a bank (Heartlands > East Badlands > King's Pass > MoP > city), Erimal is 3 zones away (Erimal > Mistwoods > Erudin > Erudin Palace). While Ikisith zones are in general larger and more dangerous, I don't think this is an entirely unfair comparison. If Murk was 7+ zonelines away I feel like it would be excessive, but the current distance feels distant lorewise without being terrible. What might be a more appropriate solution (to what I'm not sure is a problem) is a banker with the Dawn Tribe.

Reagent vendors (even Gruploks don't cast spells in a vacuum)
How hard is it to buy a couple stacks when you're planning to do stuff in Ikisith? Is running out of reagents actually a problem for people (I really have no idea since I never use them)?

Getting to the city for a new player is a massive disappointment. There is all this content but no depth or utility. The entire murk faction feels flat and unfinished. You literally only do it for your spell and shield.
There is some interesting lore in there. The main annoyance I have with Murk quests is they seem a bit heavy on the "kill x number of creatures / collect x number of items" type of quests.

For anyone who doesn't have gate necks, dealing with the murk is a massive hassle, and this provides yet another unnecessary barrier to people transitioning from fresh 65 into "advanced toons"
Probably less hassle than dealing with Badlands as a fresh 20-30 toon. So much time running for me during those levels.

Even if you have all of your faction and necks, leaving Ikisith to pull a quest item out of the bank is immensely frustrating and unnecessary.
This isn't an Ikisith-specific problem. It is true of any time you forget a quest item when you're trying to complete something, e.g., I forgot to bring mark of the vah with me when freeing the Vah from Halls of Misery -- and that was plenty frustrating/annoying, but mostly me not planning well.

Raids on Ikisith content (especially lower tier world mobs), would be much simpler if banks and reagent vendors were available on site.
Do people really avoid raiding things because its too far from a bank/reagent vendor? This again isn't an Ikisith-specific problem. Lower-tier world mobs in Ikisith not dying on the regular seems more likely an artifact of population distribution -- I know I see lower-tier outdoor mobs in the Old World up all the time as well.
 
So I'd like to be clear to everyone here - my intent was never to say that getting around ikisith is impossible for a new player to do on his or her own. People have been in Ikisith for years now and found ways around the accessibility issues. My point is it is incredibly inconvenient, unnecessary from a mechanics standpoint, and bad from a QOL perspective not to have these changes made. It is counterproductive to be potentially turning off new players to these zones by keeping things difficult just because they've always been that way. Adding a few vendors and a bank to somewhere central to Ikisith isn't going to make the game into WOW, it's just going to make regular SOD more playable for everyone. It's 2015 and we are actually picking up some solid new players from what I can see. Let's do what we can to retain them.

TLDR: This is a 100% QOL suggestion that would be easy to address and isn't going to hurt anyone. What boggles my mind is that we wade into major class rebalances every six months without batting an eye, but we still can't address simple things like banks, reagents, buff recast time, etc? To me, this makes no sense, as these changes can not break anything! See also Kedrin's list from a year ago (which is still just as relevant today).
 
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