Magician Pet Heals

[Hyoren]

Hmm iono, if the magician starts asking for better heals, then later a beastlord is gonna come in saying that a magician can heal on par with a beastlord and then the beastlord is gonna ask for a bigger nuke. He's gonna say his main nuke spell takes too long to cast for too little dmg and stops his melee for such a significant amount of time unlike the rangers fast cast one. He's gonna then want to summon minions like the mage, saying he's a beastlord, he should be able to summon a bunch of beasts to attack the target or something. Like monster summoning i, ii, iii, iv, except it would be beast summoning i, ii, iii, iv.

 

[Konya]

Thanks for the helpful comments Wiz.

@Ieatrice: I'm not sure if you've been reading all of the replies, but no one is expecting Magician healing to be on a par (or near to) Beastlord healing. I'm just looking for a small boost on Magician healing which brings things into balance (NOT balancing the healing to be the same).

Furthermore none of my proposed suggestions (& I wonder if anyone else has a different specific suggestion?) would bring Mages close to Beastlords, only that slight amount nearer.

Thanks again for all the constructive feedback.

 

[vistachiri]

Now that I've gathered them together, here are my thoughts.

Magicians already have the easiest time keeping their pet alive, why do they need more heals?

Not necessarily more. More along the lines of getting back what we lost forever ago when our healing ability was slashed due to pets mitigating 50% of pretty much all damage, which was unknown for like...ever.

Personally I've always been a proponent of cutting the recast. Our heal was nerfed from 0 recast, to 30, then to 20 iirc. At 20 it's still negligible, and not really worth using. In a group one will have a healer handy, soloing with casters other than a necro tends to run one oom fairly quickly, so chances are one can get by with mend.

A Magician has many tools at their disposal that the beast lord just doesn't. The biggie being they get a relic pet, and the beast lord doesn't. The relic pet is a beast of a thing, and alot easier to heal and keep alive than a bst pet.

Yes and no. Beasts for example get resist buffs, and a stance to share hp with their pet, as well as various other buffs.

So for a more fair comparison I'm going to assume you are talking about both classes level 63 pet. Let me know if this isn't accurate.

Magicians get there pet a 'shared mind' alot of their AA's, giving it better chance to avoid melee hits.

Magicians pets also have better resists than other pets, and an AA (Barrier Ward) that makes them all but immune to spells for a nice duration (5 minutes, about the length of most any single fight before tier 8). If they are still taking too much damage and its fire and cold based magic, the magician can blow Elemental Barrier as well (+200 FR/CR at max level).

Uh unless its been changed fairly recently Barrier is 100. Barrier ward does not provide immunity, it basically functions like supermots for 5min. Most of the fights it's absolutely imperative on, it runs out before the fight is over, which is extremely unfortunate, but it is a decent patchjob. Also since we're talking about resists, I'll draw your attention to mages possessing none of the typical resist spells (resist magic, cold, fire etc) which personally I've accrued clickies to do some of, but it would be nice for lower tiered and leveled characters to have them. Or a pet resist buff.

The Magician can use there monster summons to aux for said pet, lowering its melee damage further.

I can guarantee through heavy use and observation of monster summoning that this is not all that significant. Also since we're talking about a 5min recast of the monster summoning, one may as well just use their mend, and certain other items rather than their mostly ineffective petheal.

If we are talking about the 63 pets, the magician can slow the mob with its water pet, by 25%. Which while only half as much as a BST's potential is nothing to sneeze at pre-relic pet.

There is also no reason the mage pet isn't going to be duel wielding rune procing weapons. These runes really add up.

Which can be given to either, and is fairly incidental to any comparison of the relative power of either classes companions. They also were heavily heavily nerfed. I'll have to take a look next time I play, but the procs seem very rare (also their amount was reduced)

*bah more later gotta leave work*

 

[Wiz]

Not necessarily more. More along the lines of getting back what we lost forever ago when our healing ability was slashed due to pets mitigating 50% of pretty much all damage, which was unknown for like...ever.

This is not why heals were nerfed. This is a myth. Heals were nerfed because Magicians spent all their time casting one spell, as Ikaa explained. I should know - I took the decision and added the recast times.

 

[neonovas]

Yes and no. Beasts for example get resist buffs, and a stance to share hp with their pet, as well as various other buffs.

the stance you are referring to does nothing to help our pet tank, it only splits damage the BST takes not the pet.

 

[Enlityn3]

the stance you are referring to does nothing to help our pet tank, it only splits damage the BST takes not the pet.

This is true, if anything it makes it harder to heal.

@Enlytin: Like I said earlier, I'm mainly talking about the role in soloing, where I believe there COULD be a benefit in certain situations to mem an extra pet-heal. Whereas in a raid you're required to mem other utilities/dps, or you keep frequently memmed spells (such as Slow or SB) up for when needed.

I still don't see many instances soloing where this would be realistic to keep up the 3rd heal.

 

[Waldoff]

The recast times were added specifically because mage soloing was ending up as "Chain hit heals to keep the pet alive.

That being said any decrease to the heal cool down would be marginal at best. Mages have new options opening up to them in the impending expansion that will help their ability to keep pets alive while not limiting their spell cast options.

Comparing your heal abilities to a beastlord really is not a salient argument at all. Their pets occupy a different niche in their class structure and therefor are pretty separate from mages.

 

[Konya]

Is lowering the healing recast to 15seconds marginal enough? I've already shown it really doesn't put us anywhere near Beastlords with the single-heal ability or overall healing ability.

 

[Cyzaine]

Alot of information to take in, so in an attempt to simplify it a bit, I made a chart of Mage and Bst pet only heals.

BST's can always use regular heals as well, and they'll always be better healers because of this. The question I think we should really focus on is if the magician pet only heal is in line with the bst pet only heal. And if we determine a problem is there, then it is likely a problem at all levels, including ones that Ikisith will not help.

http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/User:Tyrsell/sandbox/petheal

I think the chart is most useful when sorted by level.

 

[Kirin Folken]

What more needs to be said after the above post


Agreee as well, slight increase in effectivenesss or decrease in recast time.

A side thought.... would it be possible to add prehaps a Innate Heal Crit to some of the mages self-buffs? That would increase healing slightly. Combine this with a recast of say 15 sec vs the 20?

These spells look like good canidates:
44 (Phantasmal Barrier) Prehaps: Innate 4% Healing crit
52 (phantasmal Armor) Prehaps: Innate 7% Healing Crit
58 (Transon's Phantasmal Guard) Prehaps: Innate 10% Healing Crit.

Edit: was writen for after Wiz's posts LOL dam you guys post fast.

 

[smadcatc]

Is it even worth it to heal the pet on raids? Healing the relic pet w/ heal increment 5 heals the pet for about 19% at best. Each heal takes 285 mana. Summoning a new pet (Relic: Manifest Elements) is 650 mana. Yes, you do lose buffs on the pet BUT you gain a lot of time to dps (instead of keeping your pet alive).

Are mage pet intended to be temporary? I think the optimal strategy for mobs that AE is to just reclaim energy on your pet when its about to die, and then just summon a new one. Am I wrong?

edit: You also wouldn't have to worry about wearing heal increment stuff if you were to just summon a new pet. Your dps would go up as well.

 

[Cyzaine]

I'm fairly certain that pet viability on raids is another topic entirely.

 

[vistachiri]

This is not why heals were nerfed. This is a myth. Heals were nerfed because Magicians spent all their time casting one spell, as Ikaa explained. I should know - I took the decision and added the recast times.

That is definitely my misconception then. I had heard of it being that before, had mentioned it in the mage threads of yesteryear, and no one said anything contradictory, so I figured that was it. My bad.

Though I'd think that bug was active at that time, contributing to the ability of mages being able to do that?

Realistically I don't think the cost/benefit ratio of healing all the time is really worth it at 10. With no recast possibly. In any case it's viability in terms of regular use is severely impaired, and has been for quite some time.

the stance you are referring to does nothing to help our pet tank, it only splits damage the BST takes not the pet.

Now that is news to me, didn't realize that particularly worked that way.

The recast times were added specifically because mage soloing was ending up as "Chain hit heals to keep the pet alive.

That being said any decrease to the heal cool down would be marginal at best. Mages have new options opening up to them in the impending expansion that will help their ability to keep pets alive while not limiting their spell cast options.

Comparing your heal abilities to a beastlord really is not a salient argument at all. Their pets occupy a different niche in their class structure and therefor are pretty separate from mages.

Whereas your best mage soloing strategy now is to use your 61 root, and blast the mob. With what one has available to them solo of course. If one was going to buff the hell out of it, one may as well just bring along a healer anyways. Soloing on a mage went from good, to everyone except enchanters, rogues and warriors are better at this. I find your comments about ikisith interesting. I am of course assuming options in the tome variety, as juggling yet another foci would be yet another headache for the class.

Essentially over a full minute, you can heal your pet once, also wasting a spell slot, which are generally in pretty short supply. With a buffed pet, this goes from dismal, to abysmal.

The reason I said soloing is better done just rooting a mob and blasting it, and not involving your pet in any way whatsoever, while one would think this slows you down, it's better than having to sit there for a few minutes healing your pet up afterwards, waiting on a recast, and wasting med time.

That being said, I haven't bothered soloing on aisling in quite some time. Sadly enough my other characters are much much much better at it.

 

[Konya]

Nice chart Tyrsell, although I personally think [Ratio Heal/Mana] would be better replaced by [Ratio Heal/Second] or having both. The recast makes a HUGE difference but it's hard to see a numerical scale for that in the current chart?

I still think that for bsts to have a 2nd Mid-level pet-heal is a BONUS. Certainly for soloing there would be times that I would mem a 2nd heal if it was similar to the beastlord one.

 

[Konya]

As per my last post, could you add in these values in an extra column pretty please?

They're in the same order as your table:

Ratio (Heal/Second)
MAG
50/7=7.14
100/17=5.88
250/23=10.87
580/23=25.2
1215/23=52.83

BST
33/12=2.75
100/11=9.10
300/12=25
583/13=44.85
910/18=50.60
438/12=36.5
1250/13=96.15
1475/13=113.46

I think this more accurately expresses the problem Mages are having.

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EDIT: In fact you can easily see everything with the following graph.
Character level is plotted on the x-axis; Healing per Second is plotted on the y-axis.

Obviously this excludes the fact that Beastlords can achieve a much better "healing per second" ratio, from using their other heals, as per Tyrsell's instructions.

------------------------------------------

EDIT#2: Here is another graph plotted in the same way.
The values for Magician2 are as though the recast of the top 3 pet heals have been decreased to 15 seconds
The values for Magician3 are as though the recast of the top 3 pet heals have been decreased to 12 seconds

I don't see anything game-breaking here.

----------------------------------------------

EDIT#3: Just for fun, a graph where the the recast of the top 3 Magician heals have been decreased to 10 seconds (to match the Beastlord).

If anyone wants to see my workings or the excel document I'm more than happy to upload them

 

[Cyzaine]

I don't know who you think you are, or if you know where you are... But around here we make our suggestions and requests with feelings and flaming not usually based in reality, not numbers and graphs that try to accurately argue a point. You should be ashamed.

 

[Konya]

I don't know who you think you are, or if you know where you are... But around here we make our suggestions and requests with feelings and flaming not usually based in reality, not numbers and graphs that try to accurately argue a point. You should be ashamed.

ARGHHH DIEEEE EVIL DEVELOPERS!!! MAKE MAGES UBER NOOOW!

....

better!? I was going to draw a graph of my feelings over time, but I was too angry to go through with it.


p.s. thanks for editing the chart, I put a link into the original post for new visitors to this thread.

 

[Rorne]

If you want it that way Cyz:

Mages are masters of the elements. On the award winning series Captain Planet the elements are Earth, Wind, Water, Fire, and Heart.

Heart and Healing have three letters in common and the icon for heal spells is a little heart....

I rest my case.

 

[SparrKenga]

I play a 65 Magi and ive never seen a problem soloing nor keeping ur pet healed. Either A) Get better gear with Pet Str/Health. B) Pick a different class. C) Get Healing Incre. Maybe u cant play the class well? Idk but, comparing Mage's to Beast's shouldnt really be done. Different Class's with different abilities. Thats like Comparing Bards dots to Necro's dot's. That being said, I can't bielive u made a Chart LOL. Board meeting a 3!

 

[Rorne]