Low Tier Raid mobs
- Thread starter Enlityn3
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Thinkmeats
War Is Good For Business
Waldoff said:
way to wreck the surprise
edit for more infoz: the patch that will put CoI quests live has a couple low-tier ancient wind torrent / plaguefang type nameds in it for shits and grins :toot:
I think many of you missed my point entirely. If it is intentional, so be it. You're willingly degrading your low end raid content, but it's not my call. Clearly many of you higher tier people are looking to protect your interests, which is fine. It's just funny that everyone in here so far has been far beyond the tiers I'm referring too. I'm not calling my solution the end all fix, more so looking for suggestions on what can be done.
Tyrone: Much of this loot is rotting. Reread the OP. I'm talking about killing raid mobs for cash. It happens... alot. Lets not even get into the poor system of getting a raid jumped by a group and trying to get justice on that.
Anyways, I'm clearly outnumbered here, and the staff seems to be on the other side of the river. I'm going to put this to rest and go check targets :keke:.
Tyrone: Much of this loot is rotting. Reread the OP. I'm talking about killing raid mobs for cash. It happens... alot. Lets not even get into the poor system of getting a raid jumped by a group and trying to get justice on that.
Anyways, I'm clearly outnumbered here, and the staff seems to be on the other side of the river. I'm going to put this to rest and go check targets :keke:.
Thinkmeats
War Is Good For Business
Also yeah I think we made some of the neglected raid mobs' loot droppable to encourage people to kill them. Since there's now a derth rather than a glut, I could see us putting the loot back to no drop status.
Maybe, but I think he might be planning on putting a couple up too. Iunno, he'll have to field that question.
Maybe, but I think he might be planning on putting a couple up too. Iunno, he'll have to field that question.
vistachiri
Dalayan Master
Brimztone said:
Pretty much true, not to mention the fact that 99% of the time the targets are up for quite a while before we even go for them, or they aren't even on tiers 0-2, which applies to MOST of our alt targets.
As for fluxator, which is obviously the purpose of most of the bitching, as he is pretty much the only one with droppable loot, let's see. If one is in the zone, xping, why in the hell shouldn't you kill him if you can? Droppable loot or no, I guarantee that he would still be killed, if people not on giant faction walked by. As for problems about progression in relation to tier. What about gnokk? Ancient deepfiend? Lady of the Deep? WW dragons? Not to mention the simple fact you can jet right past most of the gear on tiers 0-2 for pretty much every single person in your guild with tradeskilled gear. Want 5k mana casters/healers? Ngl, n2hard to do with shadowsilk.Enlityn3 said:It's become commonplace now to see high tier guilds farming very low tier raid targets, and it's getting to be extremely detrimental to those that actually need these mobs to progress. The nameds and mini's in Stormkeep, Yinny and other top end DFS mobs, and other targets I've personally seen go down to farmers a number of times in the recent past. It seems to me that these mobs should be for low end progression (which is why the loot is no drop obviously), as opposed to charm farming.
"Dude, you need to be faster to get there so you can get a killsyduck:."
It has nothing to do with speed of setup or even checking targets more often. A raid of 14+ people to kill takes quite a bit longer than a boxer or 2 getting together and hauling through a zone. I simply see no reason why these nameds should be relegated to farmed whores when their intent is clearly something else. Anti-farming code went in within the last 6 months to deter farmers from whoring zones that are clearly beneath them for profit, and I see this along the same line.
My suggestion? Implement code essentially disallowing anyone to engage a raid mob (defined something like a 65+ named who has no PH and drops all/mostly no drop gear) with under 10 people or something similar. This would rule out the 2-4 man factor, and actually require some effort to put together people to do this. I'm sure it wouldn't eliminate all raid mob farming, but it would cut down on it.
Thoughts?
Yinazara, no droppable things. I'm running out of ideas on the other "top dfs nameds". Mostly b/c quite frankly they are not worth it. Point me out a piece of gear in that zone, and I'll point you to a droppable alternative, that is much easier to get, and actually cake compared to getting a raid together for it, and you'll get multiple chances at it if you stay there long enough. Progressing or not. You can buy or kill for far faaar better. You're better off taking your raid into highkeep and slaughtering the floors enmasse, you'll not only get better upgrades, you'll get far more. The only reason yinazara is still hotly contested (and rarely ever gets 2boxed btw, usually always at least 10 there is because of the niceness and utility of particular items). Also you are not merely competing with these "2box" squads for her gear, but also pretty much everyone below poa. Yes, the ring is that nice, or at least used to be, not sure if it was included with the nerfs. Not to mention there are 7 classes on it. This is not a new thing.
Enlityn3 said:
Like breaking in alts, that don't have gear, into the raiding scene? Which is of course the same exact thing you are suggesting is the purpose, except substitute the word alt, for main. Or do you suggest that everyone with an alt go and join a low tier raiding guild and devote a literally impossible amount of time to gearing them up while still raiding?
Want culprits? Blame 18 man raiding and nodrop ancients. That's why these tiered targets get killed so often. Difficult to get alts in on raids for gear, and ancients aren't so common, and very needed by most alts. So much so that there are fully relic'd alts....without ancients. Thus ancients being rare, and nodrop, leads to targets being killed far beyond their utility.
Enlityn3 said:
Ngl, it's been done. Not easy of course. But been done. Also you're forgetting that the 18 man raid force will probably have quite a bit more leeway with scouting the mob to see if it's up in the first place, due to having more people around, more port options, etc.
Every single guild that has formed in the history of this server has dealt with it. Also, with worse. When beyond which months later broke off into empire was first formed...Gnokk, all that stuff at that tier...was droppable. Tskill gear blew, ancients and relics were droppable, and things were farmed like a corn field. Most zones provided not much in the way of droppable upgrades either, or there were only a few in each zone that were worthwhile. There is faaaar less competition than there used to be. Note, thats not a "in my day we walked 15 miles through snow and hail!" kind of story. It's just a fact, that everyone has dealt with at some point. I'm going to bet you'll find simillar stories in any guild that had any other guild at that approximate tier at the same time. Also competition doesn't get any less from here on out. In fact, it gets alot fiercer for top targets. Just have to get used to it. The solution to these kinds of problems is not limiting the tier codewise. A much better solution is to simply explain the situation, see the reasons for it, and ask for more targets. Thats what we did back in SE while I believe 3 other guilds were at our particular tier. We got new mobs. Everyone rejoiced. See that way, the entire server benefits, rather than just a few people.
Personally I've always seen that tier as being pretty limited anyways, so good to hear that theres new stuff in the works.
Enlityn3 said:
Ummm...no? Point out some specific examples here. Seeing as I've been part of these groups in the past I pretty much am in a place to say what rotted and what didn't when I was present. You however really aren't present in these. Also, hold the phone. How exactly is something rotting if it's getting killed for cash, and the drops being sold? Also, no, you are not talking about killing raidmobs only for cash. Seeing as your first statement was filled with statements referencing nodrop gear like this
"(defined something like a 65+ named who has no PH and drops all/mostly no drop gear)"
and nodrop gear, cannot be sold for $...because it is no drop. They certainly aren't getting killed for their straight plat drops. Isn't worth the time.
Now if you're talking about plaguefang? Yeah not us. In fact, I believe it's actually one of the lower guilds that has him locked down. Seeing as I was in the zone with imeriaz the last time he was done performing mass genocide with my favorite pets of all time. There was certainly no other reason for them to be in that area with 18 people all in the same guild. Crusher, not sure who has him, ain't us last I checked. I can't speak for the other guilds at my tier though, might be one of them. LOTD, I don't recall remembering the last time anyone expressed any sort of interest in farming her loot for $. Freeport named? Blame the silver crown quests. You need books from each of them to complete the final quest. Thus is it wrong for less than a raidforce to complete a quest? AWT? Nodrop last I checked, and mostly not done. Lavascale, same, but pretty much never done. Gnokk? Rarely done, last time I did him personally or heard of anyone I know ingame (which includes quite a few people from the higher tiers you have a problem with) doing him is approximately 4 months ago, he certainly isn't hotly contested, also, see nodrop. Fluxator? He's in the middle of a prime factioning zone. Doesn't matter if his loot is nodrop or not. He's in the way, he will get killed if there are people there. There are at the moment. Old one eye? More often than not, he's killed to make farming the gorge much more fun. His only piece of loot worthwhile is the mask. Lenny, hi2u shaman epic piece, see above comments on questing. Rotlord? Shield of freeport, again see questing comments. Ancient deepfiend? Nodrop, doesn't get done. In fact, try to convince one of the higher tiered guild to actually take the time to do him for some hilarity and to burn a few hours of your time. Am I missing one of the droppable "raidmobs"? Oh wait. Mielech, who doesn't get done by us at least because
A) It is a total pain in the ass to run all the way there, then all the way down there.
B) Loot isn't really what you'd call marketable
I'm guessing its a similar story with him for others.
Thinkmeats said:
Idk, plaguefang would be nice to stay on droppable, Fluxator never made a ton of sense to be droppable, but was definitely a bonus when we were gearing up farming for a charm for our tank as well as 2x upgrades off of mobs with it being replaced. He's not killed constantly, just has been killed alot more recently because of the amount of people in steel swapping over to giantfaction. We're there farming heads, so why not kill him. The ring is rare so most of the time, even assured that he's up, it's not worth the trip because 9/10 you won't get the ring. We never bother with it if we're not already in the area, the same probably applies to most other guilds. Not to mention the splitfactions that tend to happen later on making it difficult to get a force together higher up to kill him in the first place. Lotd should definitely stay droppable, because her loot being droppable hasn't really helped tbh. Nodrop would pretty much eliminate her ever getting killed. Freeport nameds going nodrop I really wouldn't see much of a problem with though. Most of their loot doesn't go for much in the first place due to a glut of it having been on the market for so long, and trying to kill them for a quest is indeed a massive pain in the ass in their current state.
Thinkmeats
War Is Good For Business
vistachiri said:
"They should stay droppable because we want money" is a very poor argument. Hell, it's a *strong* argument to make it NO DROP, because you shouldn't really *want* to kill these lower-tier nameds. You can claim you'd still hit fluxator for faction alone, but I find it hard to believe you'd have nearly as much patience with him if he didn't give you a burlap sack full of cash each time.
I do agree on LotD though, she's never killed so making her a less desirable target is silly.
vistachiri
Dalayan Master
Thinkmeats said:
Nah, I'm talking about plaguefang as he was pretty instrumental in getting keirga's charm for us at least. Fluxator would get killed if he was in the way, though I think the only reason why he wasn't really getting hit tons before is simply because there were very few people that were on dragon faction. So alot of the people killing him, simply wouldn't. Flux I'm making the argument mostly out of he's there, we're there. If we're not there, there's not really much of a chance of bothering with him because of the low selling price of the other loots, as well as the rarity of the ring. No one is going just for him. In fact I've actually tried to get people together for him before, but most people simply don't want to bother. Just pointing out the last 4 times he's been killed. He was up, and had been. We just happened to be xping in stormkeep. To clarify, its not factioning off of him, but the 90million other giants in that area that drop storm giant heads. No one's going oh man I hope fluxator is up. Also king still gets done for his head.
Botiemaster
Dalayan Beginner
I really don't understand the whole higher tier guilds killing lower tier targets for money argument. These nameds drop 100-200p at best. As others have already said, I too can only think of Flux off the top of my head SK wise for droppable loot to sell. Perhaps killing for relics for the money they fetch if you turn them in for that reason but I can think of a dozen other methods of farming money that owns that method pretty badly. There are quite a few targets out there that are farmed for droppable gear to sell but there's next to nothing for it among dragons and giants, and maybe it's been so long I can't recall but there is nada in dfs for money purposes. But I have to say because of how SoD works on content, there should be a lot more content at low tiers. Maybe it'll be overkill for low tier guilds, but in the world of Shards just because you're in Thaz doesn't mean you'll never kill DHK again. There's always a reason to go back to a zone. Low tier guilds don't have the luxury of going to Thaz or prison anytime they feel like it, but x tier 9 guild can head to sk or dhk anytime they please. Point is, don't make more low tier content for low tier guilds. Make more low tier content for the server because we need it. You have all guilds that kill it for one reason or another, not just the low tier guilds.
Regarding LotD, if anything could use a boost on loot stats. I'm in sirens constantly and have been for damn near 8 months be it for exp or farming the tradeskill stuffs there and I kid you not, I have seen her every single time I've been there. I really do think "is never killed" is very much true for Lady of the Deep. Her tricks are murder on low tier guilds if they go in very unprepared class wise and catch some bad luck. Whether you look at her as a raid target or farm target I think it's important for every named in the raid game to not go to waste because content designers deserve better for their hard work. Her gear doesn't suck imo but for the trouble that she is to people that can use the gear, it's pretty hard work taking her down and that's speaking pre 2.0 btw. My guild is way past her but I have tried to one group her in the past just to see what she packs post 2.0 and let's just say she's still the terminator in my eyes :toot:
Regarding LotD, if anything could use a boost on loot stats. I'm in sirens constantly and have been for damn near 8 months be it for exp or farming the tradeskill stuffs there and I kid you not, I have seen her every single time I've been there. I really do think "is never killed" is very much true for Lady of the Deep. Her tricks are murder on low tier guilds if they go in very unprepared class wise and catch some bad luck. Whether you look at her as a raid target or farm target I think it's important for every named in the raid game to not go to waste because content designers deserve better for their hard work. Her gear doesn't suck imo but for the trouble that she is to people that can use the gear, it's pretty hard work taking her down and that's speaking pre 2.0 btw. My guild is way past her but I have tried to one group her in the past just to see what she packs post 2.0 and let's just say she's still the terminator in my eyes :toot:
Kirin Folken
Dalayan Elder
Very cool to here about some of those chagnes coming in .. specialy the CoI quest !!!
LotD or LotL as i always call her, is problematic. On one hand her loot isn't bad for her teir.. on the other hand she can be very unforgiveing to a ill prepared or bad luck streek. Not sure what honestly could be done with her.. make her gear better? You invite higher ups to farm. Make her less difficult and again you might invite higher ups and trivalize her loot to lower tier.
*shrug*
Shes definitely a intesrting encounter for a first time....
LotD or LotL as i always call her, is problematic. On one hand her loot isn't bad for her teir.. on the other hand she can be very unforgiveing to a ill prepared or bad luck streek. Not sure what honestly could be done with her.. make her gear better? You invite higher ups to farm. Make her less difficult and again you might invite higher ups and trivalize her loot to lower tier.
*shrug*
Shes definitely a intesrting encounter for a first time....
Thinkmeats
War Is Good For Business
Brimztone said:
If farming those raid mobs made up a significant portion of your charm farming activity, you are immensely lazy and an expensive charm wasn't for you.
Thinkmeats
War Is Good For Business
soba said:
None of that makes any sense. One, if nerfing duo farming 'stagnates the economy' then way too many people were duo farming and the economy had it coming. Two, what in the world makes you think adding high-end raw-plat farms that drop plat at a rate competitive to gear farming would do anything but wreck the shit out of the economy? Three, why do you seem to think that we're against farming gear? Four, how in the hell are charms "overpowered" when they can't be compared to any other item? Five, what in the world does any of this have to do with removing droppable raid loot, which clearly ought to go to real guilds before it goes to farmers, which were locked down by farmers, which provide only a tiny fraction of optimal farming income?