Kelethin Reformation Manifesto
- Thread starter DarkUnknownOne
- Start date
DarkUnknownOne
Dalayan Adventurer
Zaira, keep happyland in happyland kkthx. I do believe that's one of the rules.
Anyone feel like intelligent response to this topic?
Anyone feel like intelligent response to this topic?
< -- going Yulanaia -- >
I suppose I shouldn't have much say here, my ma dishonored our family and ran away when she knew what was coming. My "inheritance" therefore is the wanderer's exile. But I'd be in full support of restoring Kelethin, granting only that the pride of place be given to those of my druid and ranger brethren as wish it. I argue that the majority of the Wood Elves do not feel any desire to try to take back Kelethin, for reasons ranging from my own inherited exile to a feeling that the city is dead to us. But once the city is resurrected? It's trees will most certainly start calling us home again.
< -- ending Yulanaia -- >
I suppose I shouldn't have much say here, my ma dishonored our family and ran away when she knew what was coming. My "inheritance" therefore is the wanderer's exile. But I'd be in full support of restoring Kelethin, granting only that the pride of place be given to those of my druid and ranger brethren as wish it. I argue that the majority of the Wood Elves do not feel any desire to try to take back Kelethin, for reasons ranging from my own inherited exile to a feeling that the city is dead to us. But once the city is resurrected? It's trees will most certainly start calling us home again.
< -- ending Yulanaia -- >
nihilist326
Dalayan Beginner
Right, I'm sure that the elves were too lazy to retake their ancestral homes. *insert enormous "rolleyes" smiley here*
you remember the evil that resided in Felwithe, right? The undead that would arise during the night? I may be wrong, but I believe that would make retaking/rebuilding a tad difficult. As for Kelethin, it was only recently that the mists left... give it time. You must remember that the Bearers are one of the primary driving forces in this world and, even though they haven't remade Athica in the way that it should have been, little is done without them.
shanara99
Dalayan Beginner
ooc: Well, good thing that wasn't a happyland answer, but a ROLEPLAY answer. You know, not all roleplayers folow the prophet, and I was just answering in the exact tone Zaira would answer to you (which is just a tad more agresive that how she addressed the prophet)DarkUnknownOne said:
DarkUnknownOne
Dalayan Adventurer
nihilist326 said:
There was NOTHING in Felwith at night. Nothing during the day. It was entirely empty. I remember as I checked there at least once every couple weeks.
As for Kelethin, it's been empty for MONTHS. Do you see anyone taking initiative to rebuild it? No. It's taken an Iksar and a Dark Elf to spur you into saying "NO THAT'S OUR OLD ANCESTRAL HOME EVEN THOUGH WE'VE NEVER, EVER TAKEN INITIATIVE AND WE WON'T LET PUT IN 'EVIL' GUILDS AND LET 'EVIL' RACES BE SAFE AND HAVE A PLACE TO TRAIN EVEN THOUGH WE'LL NEVER TAKE INITIATIVE OURSELVES, EVER". How pathetic elves must be, to only care about a place after people are deciding to use an empty city when everyone else is too pathetically scared to do so.
As for Zaira, most idiotic and stupid person in the world of Dalaya, hands down. Nagthilian was the home of DE's - A DE remarked about plans to rebuild it and you call them "conquering" it? Think before you speak, it'll come in handy. I'd also enjoy seeing newport fall to Kaezul just to shut you up.
Er yeah. They were. Athica was empty and they never did anything about it until we did.nihilist326 said:
... No? Athica was always empty. Kelethin originally had Mist in it, but Athica never had a thing.
Yes, it left BECAUSE Athica was rebuilt. We were told that banding together and showing unity would hurt the Mist and drive it out. It did, now lets keep going.
You don't consider several months to be "time"?
WE ARE BEARERS! Szriko and myself are both Bearers! And to be frank, we don't care whether we get help from the other Bearers or if we need to start doing charity drives around Oggok, but we will see Kelethin inhabited again!
We're willing to compromise here, of course. Again, anything to get the city back up. I find it absolutely appaling that Athica was forced to become a 'good' city when there's a large portion of the Bearers that... guess what? AREN'T GOOD. Would I like to see a new evil city? Yes. Would I accept a new neutral city? YES. All I'm asking is that you accept that not everyone who is against Kaezul is also a person of good heart. Why shouldn't I be able to go into a cleric guild without getting attacked by a bunch of dippy Paladins? Why should proud Shadowknights be relegated to the sewer systems? If a city is TRULY neutral, than it must offer sanctuary to all. A city is only truly impartial when it's casters guild does not exclude Necromancers and it's Paladins keep their guildhouse next to the Shadowknight's.
Allielyn
*Pony*
Ykari07 said:
As a bearer of truth, I see it as my duty to help stem the tide of evil threatening to overwhelm us from Kaezul's shores. Even those of you who consider yourselves "evil" as such should take note - you will not be spared any more than others. However, this attitude concerns me greatly. How can we hope to defeat an enemy legion in size while we are constantly at each other's throats? How can we hope to work together when the constant threat of eventual battle between ourselves looms large? It cannot happen.
This is our greatest weakness. If we cannot learn to look past our differences and work together on a long term basis, we may as well throw ourselves on Kaezul's mercy now. You think you're not welcome in Athicaa? I never sent you away. If you have a right to be there, then take that claim! Do not let scowls and harsh words turn you away. By leaving, you make all weaker. By staying, you help contribute to the solution - which has more to do with solidarity in purpuse and direction than you might realize.
Will Kelethin be rebuilt? With time, perhaps. But I highly doubt the free countries have the manpower and resources to maintain the cities they have built, should Kaezul begin his invasion in force. Building more sparsely populated cities so that everyone can surround him or herself in a comfortable zone where they don't have to consider the fact that different people also live on this world is NOT the solution.
DarkUnknownOne
Dalayan Adventurer
You just said you would kill all the 'evil' races and classes in the Bearers, yet say we can't be having a civil war? NOONE IS HAVING A CIVIL WAR. HAVING ANOTHER CITY IS GOOD, IT MAKES US STRONGER OVERALL. THERE HAS BEEN NO REASON TO STIR UP TROUBLE BY PROTESTING. Noone has said they'd kill anyone, except for you just now.Allielyn said:
nihilist326
Dalayan Beginner
hrm, i thought i remembered there being some evil presence in Felwithe at night before it was retaken. if i'm wrong, my apologies
in the grand scheme of things, i would consider years (though i'm glad this isnt the case) to be a suitable amount of time to rebuild a city after it was decimated by an enemy army/disaster. Allielyn said it perfectly
let it also be known that I am a Dark Elven Shadowknight and have never felt put out of Athica. In fact, I've began to think of it as a second home.
in the grand scheme of things, i would consider years (though i'm glad this isnt the case) to be a suitable amount of time to rebuild a city after it was decimated by an enemy army/disaster. Allielyn said it perfectly
let it also be known that I am a Dark Elven Shadowknight and have never felt put out of Athica. In fact, I've began to think of it as a second home.
OOC : Guys I love you all dearly, but it's really hard to tell whether you agree or not when you roleplay. We can continue debating on this til the end of time if you like, but at least in one post let me know whether you'd be willing to help rebuild Kelethin or not. If this DOES get off the ground, I'd like to know who I can rely on to be of assistance.
IC : Allielyn, we have been told and indeed have directly SEEN that rebuilding Athica drove the Mists from the Kelethin tree tops. What kind of fools are we to leave Kelethin as a dead wasteland? It is a resource, a very valuable one at that. And if fixing up Athica cleared out Kelethin, would there not be a profound effect on Nagthilian if Kelethin were restored? The Mists of Nagthilian are strong certainly, but so too were the Kelethin Mists.
At best, Nagthilian will be freed from Baldakos' curse. At worst, we will have turned a treetop grave into a bustling home for anyone who cares to live 50 feet above the ground.
IC : Allielyn, we have been told and indeed have directly SEEN that rebuilding Athica drove the Mists from the Kelethin tree tops. What kind of fools are we to leave Kelethin as a dead wasteland? It is a resource, a very valuable one at that. And if fixing up Athica cleared out Kelethin, would there not be a profound effect on Nagthilian if Kelethin were restored? The Mists of Nagthilian are strong certainly, but so too were the Kelethin Mists.
At best, Nagthilian will be freed from Baldakos' curse. At worst, we will have turned a treetop grave into a bustling home for anyone who cares to live 50 feet above the ground.
Allielyn
*Pony*
DarkUnknownOne said:
Woah there; tucker down, fireball. I never said anything about killing "evil" races or classes (or anybody for that matter); in fact I put it in quotations since even the label "evil" can be argued. I was referring to the fact that Kaezul won't spare them any more than he will spare the "good" races and classes.
Nor did I ever implicate that individuals gallavanting off to Kelethin were about to start a civil war. I did indicate that it would be the start of further divisiveness; and I beleive that divisiveness is the one thing that will bring us down - more than anything else.
Having another city is good - if it can be defended, and if current population numbers have the supply to fill it out. If the only reason to have another city is so that some people can feel more "comfortable," then we're spreading ourselves too thin, laying the groundwork for future hostilities, and solving none of the problems inherent with the current system.
Now, back to the subject at hand. . .
Ykari07 said:
I highly doubt that rebuilding Kelethin would have a profound effect on Nagthilian; as the latter is a continent away, and then some. In addition, although we saw that Kelethin was cleared, we still have no idea as to the ways or means by which it was cleared. Without proper understanding of how it was done, we can't hope to repeat it, particularly not in the stronghold that is Nagthilian. (Nor can we hope to prevent it from recurring in Kelethin, for that matter).
I wouldn't call Kelethin a dead wasteland now. Certainly, it is an overgrown wilderness, but it has the advantage of having an infrastructure to build on. Whether or not we choose to build on it, it will always be available. Tell me, Ykarri, what would we gain from developing Kelethin now? Do we have the manpower to hold it? (For that matter, do we have the manpower to hold anything, including Athicaa?) What resources could it provide that would be useful to the Bearers? What kind of people would it attract? What role would the city aim to play on the greater world scale? How would it be any different from Athicaa? How would the proximity to affect both Kelethin and Athicaa?
There are certainly arguments here I'd be willing to consider. But the one argument I've seen pushed the most is that some people feel ostracized and they want a place of their own. I don't think this is a good argument; in fact, I think it's a dangerous one, for reasons I've already outlined. If the current prevailing attitude is the impetus to rebuild, then I'm sorry to say I'm not interested in helping as a Bearer of Truth. However, as an adventurer interested in something new every day you might be able to depend on me for support.
Allielyn said:
While this is true, I think many of the "evil" people feel quite spurned by the lack of support from the Bearers from the rebuilding of Athica. How can we work together when the very thing we did (freeing Athica) to impact the world is very one sided to the "good" people of the world? If Athica was a complete and global city for "all" then we would not be speaking or at each others throats right now.
Many "evil" races helped rebuild Athica too and got nothing to show for it. It's almost a kick in the tail to them, don't you think?
How foolish of us evildoers to let the missguided people of dalaya run the precious athica without us...
It enrages me to think how my fellow brothers worked and achieved a goal, only to be overwelmed by the selfishness of good. How could athica be called a neutral city if arcanes reject our respected community, for necromancy is the game of life/death.
If there is such thing as a ''balance'' of good and evil let our people enjoy the city we helped arise, if tolerance needs to be, if you want us, evildoers, within your lines, let us take place in athica... otherwise, help us rebuild the long gone tree-city as we helped in athica, for there is no greater good than the one done to an ''enemy'' in need and there's no greater evil than spreading it.
It enrages me to think how my fellow brothers worked and achieved a goal, only to be overwelmed by the selfishness of good. How could athica be called a neutral city if arcanes reject our respected community, for necromancy is the game of life/death.
If there is such thing as a ''balance'' of good and evil let our people enjoy the city we helped arise, if tolerance needs to be, if you want us, evildoers, within your lines, let us take place in athica... otherwise, help us rebuild the long gone tree-city as we helped in athica, for there is no greater good than the one done to an ''enemy'' in need and there's no greater evil than spreading it.
DarkUnknownOne
Dalayan Adventurer
Let's not forget that there's only 2 evil cities(Grobb and Oggok), yet there's Newport, Athica, Surefall, Halas, and Underhill for good cities. The only semi-neutral city is Thurgadin, and it could be considered good too.
vistachiri
Dalayan Master
To think that athica itself even qualifies as good is perhaps an apt description.... If one considers the sentient heart of the city "good" Would newport qualify as good as well? Why? Because the paladins weed out their less intelligent and suicidal members by pushing them out into the streets to throw themselves into oblivion by hurling them at vastly more powerful "evildoers"? Why exactly would newport qualify as good? The church of the deep one is there...true...althuna's warriors or whatever their names are (ooc
allies) also there. Underside? Necromancers and shadowknights. Seems pretty fairly neutral to me, sided a bit towards "law"..but neutral.
Should athica be good? Is it even relevant at this point? Truly? Tolerance is a good word for it. Racial hatreds barely kept in check by the most powerful of motivators. Survival. Get along or die. Those are pretty much our options. Oh sure, we can put up a big old show, and fight and sputter to the end seperately. Fat lot of good that will do us. Point is bickering will get us nowhere. Antiquated ideals such as "good" and "evil" being personified as absolutes will also get us nowhere. It's a new age. Other than the gods themselves NOTHING is truly good, or truly evil. To consider it that way is quite frankly lazy, and illogical.
Consider this. Team A represents "Good" Team B represents neutral, or more aptly in between, Team C represents "Evil". Each team has 10 members. Team D has 100 members. If team A B and C fight seperately....do they stand a chance? Consider of course that 2 members of team D are vastly more powerful than any member of any other team. Now consider Team ABC together. At least they stand a better chance. Of course things are more complicated than that. But the basic premise stands.
What should be considered are questions more of the nature of how to best subvert, sabatoge, and otherwise hamper forces that are indeed the enemy, and indeed want to dance on the large mounds that will undoubtedly be made of our corpses if we don't pull together. Personally I'd like to turn them into crispy strips, but I digress.
Undoubtedly athica is free of mists. That fact cannot be ignored. But why? The answer I'm fairly certain does not only lie in the fact we banded together in happy rainbow brigade of warm fuzzy feelings. Many things can and probably have factored into the current circumstances. The awakening of the heart of the city for instance. Perhaps even the amount of time passed since the "curse" itself, nothing lasts forever after all. Many more possible reasons exist. What I think would be more constructive is figuring out what played the greatest part...and duplicate it. Granted we should not stretch our supply lines to far, a folly in any war. But I fail to see how Kelethin would fall under that umbrella of a situation. Resettling Kelethin would be beneficial I believe for the following reasons:
A) More territory/resources. S/He with the most toys...wins.
B) Reinforcement of Athica itself from attack. It is more difficult to take 2 large areas of territory and hold it against retaliation that to take one large city. Since Kelethin is currently empty we would not have to deal with that, only reinforcing it. Although undoubtedly it should not take precedence over reinforcing the city proper. It is better to have a fortress than a fence around a town. If it's feasible to extend the fortifications of athica with another town then that's all well and good. To quash some of the outcry at this I'm sure will result from the above comments, kelethin would not simply be an extension of athica. Obviously. However it would be a place one would have to go through first if coming from an inland area(as opposed to...other...routes) to get to Athica, and the heart of the city itself. Which one would think all of us would wish to protect by the simple fact that the mists disappearance may be partially attributable to it's existance. Let alone the mere scientific curiousity.
Allielyn said (ooc: yes I'm too lazy to go back and quote the proper way)
"I highly doubt that rebuilding Kelethin would have a profound effect on Nagthilian; as the latter is a continent away, and then some. In addition, although we saw that Kelethin was cleared, we still have no idea as to the ways or means by which it was cleared. Without proper understanding of how it was done, we can't hope to repeat it, particularly not in the stronghold that is Nagthilian. (Nor can we hope to prevent it from recurring in Kelethin, for that matter)."
Agreed to the utmost.
Also agreed on the premise that there need to be better reasons. I think we may have them. Now for logistics. Questions we need to answer are:
A) Can we effectively defend Athica itself, and the other cities, in light of the peculiar possible threats presented recently.
B) Do we have the numbers to expand without weakening the main strongholds of power left.
C) What exactly do we know about the mists...what can we test?
D) How can the enemy be most effectively hamstringed? So to speak. Hamper their advances enough, buy us time, take them apart a chunk at a time..and they will fall.
I would cautiously support Kelethin rebuilding. IF our weakest points could be reinforced before we take on another project. Currently I believe the weakest of our points are actually Sadri Malath and Halas. Sadri more so than Halas for obvious reasons, some of which are outlined below. Though it is not far behind.
Another point of possible interest...in the area of possible invasions etc. It would possibly be in our best interests to attempt to duplicate the efforts of newport, athica, and grobb in terms of transportation for the rest of the vital spots. (ooc: again bringing up the portnecks for each city, Wiz said he plans to add one for each eventually, maybe it can go with storyline, who knows, but eh I'll break the ice on the idea at least). Getting immediate aid to an area under attack would be swift with such a system, regardless of where it was. Obviously they shouldn't be given out to absolutely everyone like a holiday trinket, and none of them are given out like that currently. One has to actually prove themselves to be working in the best interests of the city before they can earn such an item. Currently actually I believe the easiest target in all of the known world would be Sadri Malath, not athica whom very many powerful people can get to almost immediately. Sadri has no direct druid rings, or wizard spires next to it (accessible through swastes but still have to run a significant amount to get there). It is most easily accessed by going through the mansion of portals. Which could prove verrry dangerous should an opposing force be waiting on the other side at some point. It is of course fairly easy to pick off one person at a time as they exit the realm.
allies) also there. Underside? Necromancers and shadowknights. Seems pretty fairly neutral to me, sided a bit towards "law"..but neutral.Should athica be good? Is it even relevant at this point? Truly? Tolerance is a good word for it. Racial hatreds barely kept in check by the most powerful of motivators. Survival. Get along or die. Those are pretty much our options. Oh sure, we can put up a big old show, and fight and sputter to the end seperately. Fat lot of good that will do us. Point is bickering will get us nowhere. Antiquated ideals such as "good" and "evil" being personified as absolutes will also get us nowhere. It's a new age. Other than the gods themselves NOTHING is truly good, or truly evil. To consider it that way is quite frankly lazy, and illogical.
Consider this. Team A represents "Good" Team B represents neutral, or more aptly in between, Team C represents "Evil". Each team has 10 members. Team D has 100 members. If team A B and C fight seperately....do they stand a chance? Consider of course that 2 members of team D are vastly more powerful than any member of any other team. Now consider Team ABC together. At least they stand a better chance. Of course things are more complicated than that. But the basic premise stands.
What should be considered are questions more of the nature of how to best subvert, sabatoge, and otherwise hamper forces that are indeed the enemy, and indeed want to dance on the large mounds that will undoubtedly be made of our corpses if we don't pull together. Personally I'd like to turn them into crispy strips, but I digress.
Undoubtedly athica is free of mists. That fact cannot be ignored. But why? The answer I'm fairly certain does not only lie in the fact we banded together in happy rainbow brigade of warm fuzzy feelings. Many things can and probably have factored into the current circumstances. The awakening of the heart of the city for instance. Perhaps even the amount of time passed since the "curse" itself, nothing lasts forever after all. Many more possible reasons exist. What I think would be more constructive is figuring out what played the greatest part...and duplicate it. Granted we should not stretch our supply lines to far, a folly in any war. But I fail to see how Kelethin would fall under that umbrella of a situation. Resettling Kelethin would be beneficial I believe for the following reasons:
A) More territory/resources. S/He with the most toys...wins.
B) Reinforcement of Athica itself from attack. It is more difficult to take 2 large areas of territory and hold it against retaliation that to take one large city. Since Kelethin is currently empty we would not have to deal with that, only reinforcing it. Although undoubtedly it should not take precedence over reinforcing the city proper. It is better to have a fortress than a fence around a town. If it's feasible to extend the fortifications of athica with another town then that's all well and good. To quash some of the outcry at this I'm sure will result from the above comments, kelethin would not simply be an extension of athica. Obviously. However it would be a place one would have to go through first if coming from an inland area(as opposed to...other...routes) to get to Athica, and the heart of the city itself. Which one would think all of us would wish to protect by the simple fact that the mists disappearance may be partially attributable to it's existance. Let alone the mere scientific curiousity.
Allielyn said (ooc: yes I'm too lazy to go back and quote the proper way)
"I highly doubt that rebuilding Kelethin would have a profound effect on Nagthilian; as the latter is a continent away, and then some. In addition, although we saw that Kelethin was cleared, we still have no idea as to the ways or means by which it was cleared. Without proper understanding of how it was done, we can't hope to repeat it, particularly not in the stronghold that is Nagthilian. (Nor can we hope to prevent it from recurring in Kelethin, for that matter)."
Agreed to the utmost.
Also agreed on the premise that there need to be better reasons. I think we may have them. Now for logistics. Questions we need to answer are:
A) Can we effectively defend Athica itself, and the other cities, in light of the peculiar possible threats presented recently.
B) Do we have the numbers to expand without weakening the main strongholds of power left.
C) What exactly do we know about the mists...what can we test?
D) How can the enemy be most effectively hamstringed? So to speak. Hamper their advances enough, buy us time, take them apart a chunk at a time..and they will fall.
I would cautiously support Kelethin rebuilding. IF our weakest points could be reinforced before we take on another project. Currently I believe the weakest of our points are actually Sadri Malath and Halas. Sadri more so than Halas for obvious reasons, some of which are outlined below. Though it is not far behind.
Another point of possible interest...in the area of possible invasions etc. It would possibly be in our best interests to attempt to duplicate the efforts of newport, athica, and grobb in terms of transportation for the rest of the vital spots. (ooc: again bringing up the portnecks for each city, Wiz said he plans to add one for each eventually, maybe it can go with storyline, who knows, but eh I'll break the ice on the idea at least). Getting immediate aid to an area under attack would be swift with such a system, regardless of where it was. Obviously they shouldn't be given out to absolutely everyone like a holiday trinket, and none of them are given out like that currently. One has to actually prove themselves to be working in the best interests of the city before they can earn such an item. Currently actually I believe the easiest target in all of the known world would be Sadri Malath, not athica whom very many powerful people can get to almost immediately. Sadri has no direct druid rings, or wizard spires next to it (accessible through swastes but still have to run a significant amount to get there). It is most easily accessed by going through the mansion of portals. Which could prove verrry dangerous should an opposing force be waiting on the other side at some point. It is of course fairly easy to pick off one person at a time as they exit the realm.
DarkUnknownOne
Dalayan Adventurer
This topic is now pointless, was given the no-go.
Don't bother posting anymore.
Don't bother posting anymore.
I must say, that as a young Cultist of Entropy and a loyal one at that, a "evil" set-up in Kelethin would be an outstanding adventure for us to undertake. Would we refuse anybody the right of entrance? By the gods, no. But it could be a bastion for those races that have not found a place to live in Athica to take refuge nearby. Its common knowledge the races viewed as "good" have found homes in Athica, while those deemed as lesser beings by these races have been left out. The darker practices have also been ignored, Shadow Knights and Necromancers need a place of their own in the area for their training, instead of being forced into the dank sewers of Newport, or the swamp cities of Grobb and Oggok. All others would still be welcome, we are simply asking for a place that we are included as well.