General Bullshit About Today's Patch

while just like many of those working on the new code have said this is not final for all the changes made. I think that there has been a huge lack of attention to one thing. And as usual with all the other things going on, it has fallen to the way side.



THANK YOU for all the hard work and adding 61-65 to the game!!
 
Thanks

I will repeat Chameleon's post. Everything I was going to say regarding balance has already been said, so I'll just say thank you for all the work/testing you've been putting in.

I think the reason people have gotten so hostile is actually an off-handed compliment to you and the GM staff Wiz. People have enjoyed WR so much compared to Live that anything that makes it closer to Live is perceived as bad and a nerf. Also I think people have been in general pleased with the quick response of the staff to problems, so get frustrated when things aren't ironed out SUPER fast.

Personally I view the changes as a forced break, which you have to admit, we all need from EQ every once in a while :)

Sandral
 
I haven't logged my ranger on since the patch, and I haven't really played in a regular group either. From the grouping I have done, however, I've mainly noticed that a difference in tactics are required, such as clerics standing for the entire fight, making a better choice of which heals they use and having the finger ready on Divine Arua just in case.

I've gotten aggro a number of times, mainly due to over-healing, casting CHeal too early, habitually sitting down, etc. And I've also let someone die a number of times because my judgement on the rate that HP drops per mob per round has been offset with the changes, but I can still function as a cleric if I pay attention and don't slip back into my old routine.

Aggro does need to be toned down, but it is possible to play efficiently if you accept the changes and play accordingly until they're fixed. Memorise root. Memorise stuns. Memorise aggro wipes... I think some of the complaints arise from people who are trying to play exactly as they played before the patch.
 
backstabbing npcs

Something i haven't seen mentioned here yet is that i am getting backstabbed from the front again (by mobs in bancak mines, but i suspect all rogue mobs are doing it?).

I used to notice this on some kobolds in warrens too, but it appeared to be solved a while ago. After the patch though i went to bancak and i got backstabbed from the front again.

I would also like to state that killing blues for me, at level 25 (with a cle/war combo) has become about twice as hard or even triple that to what it used to be. I often have to let my warrior almost die before i can cast a heal (have to love the low aggro of the celestial ;) ).
Where i used to be able to chain blues and have little trouble killing 2 blues every once in a while, if two blues appear now i'm lucky to survive ;(
To kill a yellow con i have to be lucky and cleric has to be full, a redcon is out of the question (as it probably should be though hehe).

for a little reference ill say something about my gear which obviously isn't all that great:
Cleric is at 145-150 wis, 600hp-ish
Warrior has 1150 hp/ 550-560 ac (full bought plate armor + some black steel)
weapons are the spiked warclub of the clan and a 10/24 with 25dd proc from sseru (forgot its name looks like a claw).

Duce/Jayna

edited spelling, damn early mornings
 
low level balance

Ok that's great to hear Wiz. Was just trying to give some extra info since i only found high-level "reports". I guess im one of the very few lowbies on the server :eek:

Duce/Jayna
 
nah, i think it just takes most people awhile to figure out that paying attention to the boards will help you out. :)

i personally haven't logged on in about 1 1/2 weeks cuz i've got crazy stuff going on RL side (wedding) but thats about to clear up, and I'm looking forward to the changes that were made. I won't lie, I enjoyed heading into Sanctus Seru with my fellow level 40's and running back and forth, wiping out the red cons. Dinging every half hour was great...but now I see really that isn't the point. That whole thing about the journey, blah blah blah, not the destination. Yeah. Let me some it up with a little something my drill sergeant told us in basic: "If it were easy anyone could do it, and then WTF is the point?" Play on and celebrate your accomplishments, especially if they come twice as slowly.
 
nah, i think it just takes most people awhile to figure out that paying attention to the boards will help you out.

i personally haven't logged on in about 1 1/2 weeks cuz i've got crazy stuff going on RL side (wedding) but thats about to clear up, and I'm looking forward to the changes that were made. I won't lie, I enjoyed heading into Sanctus Seru with my fellow level 40's and running back and forth, wiping out the red cons. Dinging every half hour was great...but now I see really that isn't the point. That whole thing about the journey, blah blah blah, not the destination. Yeah. Let me some it up with a little something my drill sergeant told us in basic: "If it were easy anyone could do it, and then WTF is the point?" Play on and celebrate your accomplishments, especially if they come twice as slowly.
Click to expand...

Well deeho81, as much as I'm sure your drill sergeant was an amazing person *cough* , I'm not quite sure it pertains to everquest or even real life for that matter. People here enjoyed how it was an were looking for improvements. This is a huge task for the WR team to keep up with so they are trying to keep everyone happy. The problem with gaining exp so slow is that you have to invest so much time to do so, and a lot of people don't have or want to do that. SOE decreased greatly the amount of exp mobs give out from beta to where they are now mostly do to keep players logged and running their characters to keep those monthly subscriptions coming in. The high end game isn't about leveling anyway it's about raiding mostly, so those of use that just want to raid we want to get there at a reasonable rate.
 
Please change it back

What we have is a classic example of the law of unintended consequences. If your intent was to tone down player DPS so they couldn't kill uber mobs so easily/fast, you may have succeeded. But you've also managed to completely wreck the nice risk/reward balance that existed before. XP is S-L-O-W now. No it's not as bad as Live, but it's a lot worse than before. One of the reasons I liked WR was because I didn't have to grind, there was no xp treadmill. But now unless I'm in a perfectly balanced group of 58+, anything we can kill is worth crap xp.

Please change it back and figure out a better way to balance uber-mobs.

Sandral
 
Sandral. Are you sure that you're not comparing level 61-65 EXP to old exp or something here?

Seriously. A level 51 mob gives the exact same amount of numerical experience as a level 54 mob did before the patch. A level 51 mob now has about 2000 more HP, and hits roughly as hard.

I honestly don't get some of these complaints about slow exp, because they make no sense to me.
 
Well, let me try and explain pre-patch and post-patch Mielechs Depth for xp, at least from my perspective. I always group with the same 3 people, and sometimes add 2 extras. This group consists of Khalid, Leshar(my DCed enchanter), a shaman(60), and a ranger(60).

Prepatch, we did upper Mielechs Depth mainly, also did Chef area, and Crypt sometimes. The Upper mielechs(or mielechs trash, as we liked to call it) was very nice AA xp, albeit boring. We would do Chef and Crypt mainly to "mix it up" so to speak, and try to get items, but it was considerably harder and usually required that we at least get 2 more.

PostPatch, upper Mielechs Depth is horrible xp both for AA and normal xp(my ranger friend is going 100% AA, im going 100% levels). Mind you, we had a double whammy on this, since we both had the DPS patch and the 54-51 mob xp lowering I believe. Regardless of the exact cause, Upper Mielechs is no longer worth the time of day. Its such slow xp, that its virtually pointless. Chef, which still has a mixture of normal frogloks and enchanters, is also not worth the time of day anymore, since regular mobs are just not worth it, taking longer to kill than before, and giving less xp than before. For awhile post-patch, Crypt was completely impossible, but was changed for a few days so we could do it, but then after Coltaine(who has over 2000 more hitpoints than me and probably twice my DPS and more AC, and mind you Im one of the best equipped tanks outside of GOTW) was found to be able to duo it, it was made impossible for anything but a perfectly balanced group.


Anyway, to give you an idea of the concensus opinion of post-patch xp(at least in RUIN), and that is for both AA and normal level xp, unless you are fighting in a area of all 55+ mobs, its virtually pointless right now. No one is even trying to duo that I know of, and everyone is having alot of trouble finding groups. Outside of GOTW, clerics are extremely hard to come by, and so we have to live with shamans as main healers. Yet, at the same time, the "easier" xp areas are virtually worthless. DN is completely pointless xp, Mielechs upper trash is pointless, Crypt is impossible, and Cmalath both requires a UTTER perfect group(both monk, cleric, shaman, and enchanter are required, plus 2 heavy tanks) and it has to be empty. We are left with undead frogloks and shrooms(and believe me, outside of Crypt, there are barely enough to support a full group), Ahkeva, and thats about it. Last night doing Undead froglok and shroom mobs outside of Crypt, wwe were able to get fairly good xp. Yet to give you an idea, I had at all times all day a waiting list of 3 people. Normally alot of these people would have been soloing, but soloing is pointless now, so they just got added tot he waiting list and begged for groups all day and/or logged.

A quick comment on your post. You said "A level 51 mob now has about 2000 more HP, and hits roughly as hard". Well, speaking from a paladin's perspective, who deals from 25-40 DPS parsed on a regular basis, 2000 more hitpoints is ALOT. Dps goes down + hps go up + resists go up = alot longer to kill the same mobs.
 
Alright. In response to this, I am going to lower the disrespecensis between lower 50's and upper 50's mobs somewhat.

BUT

I do wonder what you expect? 5% AA per level 50 mob you solo? 3% per mob you kill in a group? When I tested, grouped, a low 50's mob would give between 1-3% AAexp in a full group. Is this so utterly completely worthless, or are you exhaggerating because the exp from high mobs are so much better that it's only worthless in comparision?
 
Well, its a fine line Ill admit. Im constantly logging stuff and parsing, but I dont have my xp bars set to %. Its just that when we do upper areas, it seems much slower than before. I know that isnt very definite, and its not something I can point to and say "3% is fine, 2% is worthless", but surely in comparison it doesnt seem worth it.

Anyway, thanks for looking into all this and taking our opinions into account.
 
Wiz said:
Sandral. Are you sure that you're not comparing level 61-65 EXP to old exp or something here?

Seriously. A level 51 mob gives the exact same amount of numerical experience as a level 54 mob did before the patch. A level 51 mob now has about 2000 more HP, and hits roughly as hard.

I honestly don't get some of these complaints about slow exp, because they make no sense to me.
Click to expand...

The numerical xp might be exactly the same, but if it takes 2x longer to kill it, then the risk/reward has been cut in half. The combination of lowering of melee DPS (which makes aggro control harder), increased mob HP, and increased resists means experience gained over time has plummeted. Killing a level 51 mob is so much harder than killing a level 54 pre-patch that it doesn't matter if xp is numerically the same.

There also seems to be a BIG jump between mob levels 39 and 40. My 60 Beastmaster guildmate was levelling an alt and he says he can tank a L39 geonid and lose 3-5% life but a L40 geonid takes him down 50%.

If the original reason for the patch was to tone down melee DPS (something I tend to agree with considering the rog/mnk/war DPS I heard bandied about), I think the best solution would be to just change ONE thing at a time. Lower melee DPS, gradually preferably until the desired balance is reached. I don't know the mechanics behind it, but it does seem to me that high dmg/delay ratio weapons were too easy to get, causing melee DPS to be too high for those who got them. In comparison, good high level gear (non-weapons) is pretty rare if you're not able to kill dragon/NToV.

Everquest is a hugely complex system where changing one thing can have many unintended consequences. Lowering melee DPS causes aggro problems which causes mana problems which makes certain areas impossible, for example.

Lowering melee DPS, changing mob levels, increasing mob HP, increasing mob resists and allowing levels 61-65 all at the same time makes it very difficult to determine what is causing problems.

Sandral
 
Long Post...

Wiz,

I agree with Strahd. The number of factors that has been altered throw the entire equation out of whack. Another problem people are having is the addition of 61-65 and how slow it is. Since their dps is lowered, since mobs are harder, since battles take longer, AND their exp bar rarely moves, it summons up all the bitterness many of us have toward live. I have no problem with slow lvl 61-65, but combined with everything else, the entire world feels harder now, more tedious, not worth the risk-vs-reward. It feels... like live. The reason we play WR is because it's NOT live. The server seems more like work than fun of late.

My observations pre- and post- patch....

I am not sure what groups were killing reds so easily. I can count the number of reds on one hand that my groups in the last 2 months have killed alone. Did a few of them need to be tweaked? Yes. Did every under 62 mob need to be buffed? No. What is the downside of a very good group tackling a red, let's say... a low 40s group winning vs. a Sanctum Brugwar (which is HARD to do, btw)... the advantage to them is a nice achievement, little more exp, not really loot advantage... but pride in a job well done. The exp is actually not that much faster because of the downtime involved with having to heal its dps. But... it was possible. It made things exciting. Where is the harm in this? If they level 10% faster than a group hunting solely low blues, so what? The only case in which hunting reds could be unbalanced is if that red has raid-level loot (in which case, the individual mob should be tweaked).

Post-patch... it's hard for me to get excited about almost wiping to blues. It's hard for me to get excited about having a healer die *every* fight on a raid. It's hard for me to get excited about Ahekva as the only place for decent exp that's worth the effort (and really only the blue men, at that!). My favorite zone was Seb but now it's a ghost town because it takes 60% of a clerics mana for *1* clay golem.

Basically, the patch made downtime a necessity, which is disappointing. It made duo'ing practically impossible for most classes. It made raids a nightmare because of the heal aggro. It gave the illusion of huge exp loss because of 61-65. It made the killing of low blues the only reasonable exp for most groups (which gets boring). It made normal exp for 40-60 much slower because of the dps nerf (despite the exp boosts). The resists are annoying. Recant magic, which on live is unresistable, got resisted many many times in Sleeper's.

My final comment: Sleeper's. I'm not going to whine about the difficulty or the splitting or the 2000 dds, cause actually, I like all that. I love the challenge of the zone. (The loot does need adjustment tho...). Sleeper's is a *perfect* example of how to make the high-end game challenging without nerfing the entire server. POA was really hard pre-patch, as well (a great zone, too, imho). A few bosses could have been tweaked a little, but for the most part, one screw-up, and the raid wipes. I like that. That is fun, challenging, but not impossible.

To me, and please clarify if I’m wrong, the dps nerf /mob buff was to address certain groups killing beyond there means (and groups can kill reds on live, btw). The only problem to this with me is if the red mob drops raid-loot. If a 40s group is rocking and dropping a few starfish or Sanctums… more power to them. It just means they will level a little quicker so that I can make them come to my raids ;) I don’t see any harm in having more lvl 60s. Leveling is not very fun. Grinding is why I got burned out on live (along with the endless key/bane camps of SoL).

60 should be quick to obtain. 61- 65 can be slow. I have no problem with that. To me, there is no downside to 60 being fast, as it was before... because more 60s, equals more raid-members. And getting a raid together is like pulling teeth these days. The exp is bad on raids. The loot is slow with the changes. And alot of stuff is unbeatable without 25+...

If you want raids to require 25+, make 1-60 as fast, if not faster, than before. If you want much of the content to be conquerable by around 18, like before, then the resist / hp /aggro /dps needs to be toned-down a bit. I'm just curious what the overall intention of all the changes is. If it was to slow down leveling, plus, making raids harder at the same time, then these desires are at cross-purposes.

Sorry for the rambling,
Yvina/Yvang
 
I agree 100% with yvin. Individual mobs should be tweaked, but not all reds in normal exp zones. Imagine a mediocre group seeing a deep red mob thinking "can we do it?". Then they try and after a long hard fight they down it and jump with joy.
If they level a bit faster, that's cool, since it's obviously more dangerous too.
 
Wizzy : Fairly offtopic for how this thread has been going, but XP Debt seems MUCH tougher to get rid of now. Maybe its because of the overall general slowdown in xp, but right now taking a unrezzed death hurts alot more than it used to. Dont know if this was intentional or not.
 
Okay.

First of all, we can cut out the glorification of the past slaughter of reds. We were not talking about long, hard, fights here. I watched a group in the Deep, a group of four 46ish people (NOT twinks), slaughter high blue/white/yellow/red mobs without pausing. Red mobs provided zero more challenge than blue ones. I understand if this can be fun, but it not in the least balanced, and belongs more on a non-legit server.

I'll give that it was overdone, and a lot of that has been changed. Reds should no longer be undoable, but they SHOULD give you pause, which is intentional. The MASSIVE heal aggro is not intentional either. It's being tweaked down until it's at a good level.

The MAIN intention of the patch was to make 60+ mobs harder, AND to make levels matter more for 50+ mobs. Mob levels were tweaked down in accordance, amount required for 1 AA was tweaked down... lots of things were tweaked. Are you telling me that your entire enjoyment of the game comes from killing mobs that are another color than blue when you hit the c button?

The MAIN intention of the patch was to provide us with better tools for varying content challenge. More different layers of difficulcy. A level 51 mob should not be undoable by a group of 51's, but it shouldn't be easily soloable at 51.

The massive heal aggro, massive resists, etc, were unintentional. Resists should be somewhere at pre-patch levels for NPCs now. You will no longe r always miss with 100 skill against a level 50 mob, or against a level 35 mob at level 30.
 
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