Fortune Favors the Brave (New Bonus Loot Suggestion)

Silosobi

Silosobi

Dalayan Pious Diety
I was thinking about what the old bonus loot code actually favored guilds doing, and in my experience it really doesn't help encourage guilds to bring new, real players to do new content (which I imagine is the intention). I have actually seen on numerous occasions players be asked to box a character that is not their own to help attain the Diversity Loot Bonus. There is already a natural incentive for class diversity in buff stacking, synergistic abilities, filling different roles, etc.

I suggest we implement a new system that encourages bringing new players, on their own characters, and encourages guilds to do new content. The new system should either entirely replace the old, or give it a far lower chance for bonus loot, so the overall amount of bonus loot entering the game wouldn't change much. I'd guess the numbers I'm suggesting would actually provide less loot in the long term, although it would be more for a guild quickly progressing through content without old ringers (which seems worth encouraging).

Each player has 3 Bravery points for each raid boss. Raids are rewarded bonus loot equal to total raid bravery * 2 (capping at 100% and checked at the BEGINNING of the fight). If an entire raid has never killed a boss before they would 100% receive a bonus loot from it. On their second kill, they have a 72% chance for bonus loot. On their third kill they have a 36% chance for bonus loot. After that, they have no bonus loot chance unless they bring in new players who have not done the fight before.

PROS of new system:
It would encourage bringing new characters to content.
It would encourage guilds to try new/progression content, or just things they skipped before.
Its a more consistent system (diversity bonus kind of screws over the guild that just cant seem to some classes)
It would dissuade the use of old ringers who have done the content many times before.
It more appropriately rewards effort/challenge (bonus loot for the hard/new fights, none for the old easy stuff).

CONS of new system:
It may be hard to code.
If it cant be applied retroactively, it would provide a lot of unintended bonus loots at first.
It would lessen the reward for class diversity.
 
Interesting idea, but the intention of the system in place is not to encourage people to bring new people, only to utilize all 15 classes. You say that this is already implicitly encouraged - everyone agrees with this.

I again take issue with this characterization: "(diversity bonus kind of screws over the guild that just cant seem to some classes)". Here is one good definition of 'bonus' from the internet:
  • something welcome and often unexpected that accompanies and enhances something that is itself good
If you want to continue talking about this area of the game, please properly regard the bonus loot as a pleasant surprise that some raids are given and not as a promised reward that some raids are denied. Two loots is what you get from a raid boss. Two.

Furthermore, individual players do already get bonus exp for killing raid targets for the first time. While adding bonus loot on the same system is possible, it is a large-ish change would not be able to achieve your main idea (a decreasing, raid-wide chance of bonus loot). I do like the scheme you have developed and if we had absolutely complete kill records it would be more enticing overall as a replacement for Fortune Favors the Diverse.

As it is, it's important to recognize that even with the system you designed perfectly implemented and in-place, a raid of 17 first-timers + 1 ringer might not get ever a bonus loot from a given mob. I have a feeling we would then see a repeat of this thread with new ideas so on and on into eternity, the solutions deemed "acceptable" by the proponents getting more and more rigidly-defined until anything less than a guaranteed Third Loot Method is regarded as an insult to the playerbase and a symptom of "mean-dev" syndrome.

I am asking, as a favor, to let a bonus be a bonus.

Thank you.
 
Zaela said:
The other thread is closed, so I guess I'll put my comments here.

Pretty sure I've mentioned the numbers for diversity bonus loot publicly a number of times. Wasn't any big secret.

The part where people have to live to the end of the fight to count towards it is almost certainly a matter of poor programming rather than intent. Counting the number of classes represented on the hatelist right now is easy. Keeping track of it even after people die and resetting it properly on wipes etc would require a (small) system, which would have been beyond Wiz at the time he put it in. Would not be hard to make it actually reward you for bringing a sub-optimal raid setup rather than for going after fights so trivial or easily survivable that you wouldn't need an optimal setup in the first place.

Dunno anything about spires, not my thing.
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This seems to support and be where This suggestion is stemming from.

Slaariel said:
Two loots is what you get from a raid boss. Two.
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Most Spires is a clear exception to this and almost certainly is falling under the above mentioned Poor programming rather than intent section.
 
I mostly just thought this was an interesting idea, and worth discussing, more than "this is messed up and really needs to change". I think there are things much more in need of change like bugged spell crit rates and the fact that end game fights get much harder than gear gets better.

I don't think the fact that plays will always complain about the system no matter what is a good reason to not change things though. If it was decided that encouraging bringing new characters and trying new content is more important than class diversity, maybe some sort of change should be considered. This specifically probably wouldn't work, but something could be found that would work.

I am not disagreeing with you about bonuses, they are just a little extra that nobody expects or gets upset if they don't appear. The suggested system would almost always be along the same lines, unless you were doing something new for your entire raid. I guess the point I was making is that players tend to min/max this game, even for the smallest benefits, so even a small bonus like this *does* have impacts, and I definitely have seen players box retired characters just to attain said bonus. That sort of thing would happen in any system though and shouldn't really determine whether there is a change or not.

What I wanted to look at was what the old system encourages (even if its a random small bonus), and if there could potentially be a new system that would promote more healthy/fun choices. In my opinion, encouraging bringing new characters, and trying new encounters are better things to encourage than class diversity, but thats really just my opinion, and its not a major issue one way or the other.
 
Silosobi said:
I am not disagreeing with you about bonuses, they are just a little extra that nobody expects or gets upset if they don't appear. The suggested system would almost always be along the same lines, unless you were doing something new for your entire raid. I guess the point I was making is that players tend to min/max this game, even for the smallest benefits, so even a small bonus like this *does* have impacts, and I definitely have seen players box retired characters just to attain said bonus. That sort of thing would happen in any system though and shouldn't really determine whether there is a change or not.

What I wanted to look at was what the old system encourages (even if its a random small bonus), and if there could potentially be a new system that would promote more healthy/fun choices. In my opinion, encouraging bringing new characters, and trying new encounters are better things to encourage than class diversity, but thats really just my opinion, and its not a major issue one way or the other.
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This. Anyone anal enough to min/max for the outside chance at more phats (read: about 110% of MMORPG players) will take the easier path which discourages new characters which are bigger deals. FFtD isn't a pleasant surprise, it requires planning raid composition somewhat for it to even happen and making some concessions (but we want 3 clerics AND whatever the best dps at this tier is) to maximize the potential drops. The unintended consequence of the system is an incentive to not bring the new guy who, if he dies, hurts the chances at more phats.

Zaela indicated in the Spires Bracers thread that the "on death" part of this sytem, which is the real problem what with the discouraging bringing the new guy on a server sorely lacking new guy appeal, is most likely a matter of poor programming. Fix that bit and FFtD doesn't discourage bringing newbies (read: on tier) and might actually encourage doing so to fill out the class roster.
 
I think if there is any need for loot bonuses it should belong on mobs that stay unkilled for extreme amounts of time. When is the last time you saw somebody kill the dragon in plane of entropy. Maybe make an incentive to kill monsters that have trouble finding ways to die. You can even call it fortune favors the diverse.
 
Otcho said:
I think if there is any need for loot bonuses it should belong on mobs that stay unkilled for extreme amounts of time. When is the last time you saw somebody kill the dragon in plane of entropy. Maybe make an incentive to kill monsters that have trouble finding ways to die. You can even call it fortune favors the diverse.
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Maybe in some cases, but some of these mobs aren't killed because the loot isn't good enough to justify the effort involved. Adding an extra loot that isn't already incentive enough to kill the mob probably won't help.
 
huey said:
Maybe in some cases, but some of these mobs aren't killed because the loot isn't good enough to justify the effort involved. Adding an extra loot that isn't already incentive enough to kill the mob probably won't help.
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I wanted to say putting guaranteed relic scrolls or something could make them desirable in the lower tier but that also just incentivizes people to do it for their xteenth alt. But I guess no matter what you do that will most likely be the case. I don't know if bounty hunting has anything desirable as a reward but maybe you could tie that into it. Maybe even go ridiculous and just broadcast the valuable targets upon login like blessed zones or something then people will go kill them to stop getting nagged about it.
 
Otcho said:
I wanted to say putting guaranteed relic scrolls or something could make them desirable in the lower tier but that also just incentivizes people to do it for their xteenth alt. But I guess no matter what you do that will most likely be the case. I don't know if bounty hunting has anything desirable as a reward but maybe you could tie that into it. Maybe even go ridiculous and just broadcast the valuable targets upon login like blessed zones or something then people will go kill them to stop getting nagged about it.
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You filthy little slut, cum be my girlfriend.

You gonna play Destiny or what?
 
I havent owned a console since ps2 and I never played any bungie game outside of halo one. pls forgive me.
 
Cinny said:
This seems to support and be where This suggestion is stemming from.


Most Spires is a clear exception to this and almost certainly is falling under the above mentioned Poor programming rather than intent section.
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Well spires dropps 2 loots....1 loot off the boss and 2nd loot is the Runic 2 pieace with a extra chance of wrist. The zone also has really good trash dropps (opuses) and very low clearing time from boss y to boss x.
 
That is very true latten i guess if you want to look at the QPs as your second loot then i guess the bosses do drop 2 loots. But it seems very strange that unless you have 11 different classes you are unable to get class bracers at all since from what i have seen the boss loots do not include bracers only the extra loot includes bracers i dont know of any other bosses that function like this in that they only allow a chance to get something from their loot table if you receive this bonus ( i obviously cant say that there is not one with absolute certainty.)
 
I think the nz backs are like te class bracers but I am not 100% certain. We seem to have much better luck obtaining them with class diversity.
 
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