Druids, Frank and you?

Miffy said:
This is a completely different issue, there are a lot of classes where there will only EVER be one max in a raid. Not every raid MUST be optimal setup especialy with lower tiers you work with what you got. This actually makes druids good because they can slip into a dps role pretty easy if thats what the raid calls for.

I mean if your argument is clerics heal better than druids, then what's your solution making druids heal as good or almost as good as clerics? The only problem brought up that I agree with is that druids have no one thing that they are specially needed for, unlike shamans. It would be nice if druids had some spell that meant you always want that one druid in your raid. And by some spell I mean some sweet buff/debuff.
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None of this makes it okay for certain classes like druids to be categorically inferior. Also which class would you only "ever" have one of?

Your argument is basically "this game is easy enough that it doesn't matter." Also these strawmen you keep kicking over are really compelling. Your claim about raids not needing to be optimal is pretty bad too since it hinges on the point that you're doing things which aren't hard enough for you.
 
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Just give druids a 2k base fast heal on like a 10 second cool down as our runic... there now we're good at pissing off other healers and we can feel op once in a while almost CHing tanks w/ a fast heal. /niche
 
I would never turn down some druid luvin', but I don't see Druids as sucking in raids. Maybe we just have some really good players mashing buttons on their druids, but we have always used druid healers in the melee and caster groups [and they are almost always boxing]. The only time they OOM from group heals, is when we are just breaking into the tier, and has as much or more to do with resists and DPS than the druids. If they try, they can do some serious DPS.

I do think that tweaking the heals slightly would be fine and not unbalancing.

Frankly, I feel sorry for the Shamans. I don't see a need for two of them in a raid, ever.

I also wonder if the "raiding" being discussed in this thread only applies to T10+ or something.

Six man groups. I see that one wants a cleric for uber heals and shaman for uber slow with no room for a druid in very challenging content. But then again, many classes will probably be out too. Beastlord comes to mind. You need a perfect group of the "best" of each role. That leaves out the generalists.

And who gives a shit about druid utility ? It's not like they have slows or something invaluable.
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With the best DS in the game, you don't want slows. Woowoo DS DPS. Seriously, except for the hardest content, druids keep everyone healed, and really, that is all I care about. They also bring much more to the table than a cleric. Clerics can, um, heal (and make great buff bots for their one buff). Druids are better looking and heal in addition to DPS, buff and port. All I really need a cleric for in normal content is a SB Raego.
 
quote:
"Druids cannot match the healing power and speed of clerics"

Yeah,Druids are NOT Clerics.

Its always the same old story,player sees all the *great* utilities Druids get,level him up
to notice that his healing power is *slightly* less than a Cleric and go to the boards whining
how Druids "suck" in the endgame.
I like it how those requests totally ignore the lack of almost any utility or dps of Clerics
throughout their career,making it much harder to level them up.

I have no sympathy at all,either live with it or build a Cleric if you want the best heals.

Hopefully SoD devs wont fall for this crap like *** devs did,where giving away *core* abilities
of classes to nearly everyone else made the classes less distinct from each other and as a
result the game boring.
 
Ulandz said:
quote:
"Druids cannot match the healing power and speed of clerics"

Yeah,Druids are NOT Clerics.

Its always the same old story,player sees all the *great* utilities Druids get,level him up
to notice that his healing power is *slightly* less than a Cleric and go to the boards whining
how Druids "suck" in the endgame.
I like it how those requests totally ignore the lack of almost any utility or dps of Clerics
throughout their career,making it much harder to level them up.

I have no sympathy at all,either live with it or build a Cleric if you want the best heals.

Hopefully SoD devs wont fall for this crap like *** devs did,where giving away *core* abilities
of classes to nearly everyone else made the classes less distinct from each other and as a
result the game boring.
Click to expand...


If you think druids are *slightly* behind clerics you must not play this game. This post did not ignore DPS of clerics, perhaps you do not know that clerics can put out well over 200 dps by just autoattacking? Clerics even get to summon heal potions now with murk beads. Noone is talking about leveling a cleric or druid.

The main druid problem is that their group heal casts too slow to make them viable for high dps end game content atleast in terms of being the sole healer, it sucks.
 
Ulandz said:
quote:
"Druids cannot match the healing power and speed of clerics"

Yeah,Druids are NOT Clerics.

Its always the same old story,player sees all the *great* utilities Druids get,level him up
to notice that his healing power is *slightly* less than a Cleric and go to the boards whining
how Druids "suck" in the endgame.
I like it how those requests totally ignore the lack of almost any utility or dps of Clerics
throughout their career,making it much harder to level them up.

I have no sympathy at all,either live with it or build a Cleric if you want the best heals.

Hopefully SoD devs wont fall for this crap like *** devs did,where giving away *core* abilities
of classes to nearly everyone else made the classes less distinct from each other and as a
result the game boring.
Click to expand...
I don't know if you ever played one or the other, but clerics have utility too. Harmony, root, undead nukes, hammer, resist debuff. If you mean it's hard to level them up because they don't have snare, most classes don't have that.
And *slightly* is only slightly before the cleric has tomes, archaic etc, they only widen the gap (by a lot).
 
As a druid I can completely agree that druids in 6man and raids don't really serve a purpose besides diversity. We cant heal as well as clerics and we don't have the mana regen to keep up with shamans. Like most people have been saying. we have archaic.

If you look at the spells the other healing classes got:
Clerics: Raid heal (high mana cost but heals everyone) and murk beads(enough said)
Shaman: spiritual attuning, bear form
Druids - shape of the wild (mostly useless cause outdoor only), new pet(again mostly worthless because #1 we cant "hold" them, #2 they dont have many more hps then old pet=they die fast=mostly worthless unless soloing or in a casual xp group) their best function is as a rune.
Cascading vim- yes it heals for more overall hps(base w/o aas/focus effects) but it is mostly worthless because it is over written by cler/sham hots. And the ridiculous amount of mana it takes to cast.
Even paladins got a better ghot.

Ulandz said:
quote:
"Druids cannot match the healing power and speed of clerics"

Yeah,Druids are NOT Clerics.

Its always the same old story,player sees all the *great* utilities Druids get,level him up
to notice that his healing power is *slightly* less than a Cleric and go to the boards whining
how Druids "suck" in the endgame.
I like it how those requests totally ignore the lack of almost any utility or dps of Clerics
throughout their career,making it much harder to level them up.
Click to expand...
PS Clerics can put out quite a bit dps. Hammer, yaulp6, divine rage....plus they are less squishy then druids. On more then one occasion I have seen clerics tear stuff up. they may lack dps early on but in endgame they can put out a fair amount.

We are not asking to me made into clerics. Yes druids are okay in some groups, but when you are raiding and doing high end 6man stuff then completely lack anything that is worth while.

Yes we have the best ds in the game Who cares. Toll or crown+pots+shoulder clicky=ds.
plus mage ds isnt that much weaker then dru and it has resists.

My thoughts:
1. a.Reduce the mana cost of Vim
b. add something to vim that makes it more beneficial to cast. maybe something like a "mana heal"
c. remove the hot, reduce the mana cost to 725ish and make it heal for 2500ish
My reasoning for these numbers are that they wont make druids better then clerics, but it makes their ability to heal not suck so much. Since our mana regen isn't as good as clerics it makes sense for out heals to cost slightly less.
2. Reduce the 10min cool down on druid ch maybe to 3-5 mins (its fast casting and can ch a target.) making it more useful on raid and in tight spots where tanks are getting wrecked.
3. Give us quick heal (2 sec cast time and heals for 2kish) (again not as good as a cleric but a step closer)
4. A short duration buff that does something cool for the group. something that will make people want to take druids with them instead of opting for a cleric(who has healing power) and a sham (who can slow and had the mana stamina to keep up.
5. Make shape of the wild more similar to mask of the hunter - remove outdoor only, maybe add another mana regen or 2 and keep the spell crit (maybe even bump it up a bit?) and atk speed)
even it it means losing the movement speed and illusion, it would help to balance the dps and lack of mana regen that druids have.
 
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Notpit said:
With the best DS in the game, you don't want slows. Woowoo DS DPS. Seriously, except for the hardest content, druids keep everyone healed, and really, that is all I care about. They also bring much more to the table than a cleric. Clerics can, um, heal (and make great buff bots for their one buff). Druids are better looking and heal in addition to DPS, buff and port. All I really need a cleric for in normal content is a SB Raego.
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#1 DS isnt that big of a deal. You can get this with Clickies.
#2 Clerics are good dps if they want to be.
#3 who gives a crap about ports... necks and mop and gate (item or pot) can pretty much get you anywhere you wanna go.
#4 with a druid as a sole healer in a group they cannot match the dps that a cleric or sham for that matter, can because they are too busy wasting all of their mana on heals (unless you are in an easy zone)
 
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Hey listen I have solved this entire thread. Upgrade Cascading Vim base heal amount and lower it's mana cost to like 800ish. Druid group healing is where they suffer immensely late in the game (around the time you'd be obtaining runics) on raids/6-man and lets be completely honest with ourselves making their niche direct group healing is not going to phase clerics out ever so if anyone wants to claim that I will bare knuckle brawl them.

Just do this so I can stop hearing about druids and I can stop reading this thread with all the awful posts it's not even complicated it will take like 2 minutes.

Thank you.
 
Ulandz said:
quote:
"Druids cannot match the healing power and speed of clerics"

Yeah,Druids are NOT Clerics.

Its always the same old story,player sees all the *great* utilities Druids get,level him up
to notice that his healing power is *slightly* less than a Cleric and go to the boards whining
how Druids "suck" in the endgame.
I like it how those requests totally ignore the lack of almost any utility or dps of Clerics
throughout their career,making it much harder to level them up.

I have no sympathy at all,either live with it or build a Cleric if you want the best heals.

Hopefully SoD devs wont fall for this crap like *** devs did,where giving away *core* abilities
of classes to nearly everyone else made the classes less distinct from each other and as a
result the game boring.
Click to expand...
You're bad/dumb. No druid has really ever made a balancing post before now, and druids are FAR inferior to clerics in heal ability. You should play the game more or something
 
The problem with druids is they are great pre-raiding (65). Before raids, they have incredible utility with ports, dps, movement speed buffs etc. Also snare and root is an incredible tool while you level up. Once you raid, ports (minimally needed), root/snare, calm spells, and movement speed become very unimportant in the grand scheme of things. Druids really lose their appeal after the early game.
 
I agree with a lot that has been said here. Druids have had a rough life in the raid game, and even in the 6 man life. I would happen to agree that the new pet, with it being a new quirk to their class, it would be nice if it would stay alive while tanking/taking large AE's.

Cast time on the group heal is mentioned several times here, because it is quite a long gheal time for the benefit it does give.

One thing I would like to bring up, that was done about 3/4 years ago. One poster Luxx, a druid posted about how druid's DS was inferior to mage's DS in every way. As such, the druid DS remained the same, and mage's took a couple point decline. The OP thoughts on that would be for druid's DS to get a PR/DR (Like niklo) buff in addition to the DS. Obviously less then shaman's but it would be a nice addition.(Also would be great if it stacked w/shaman's)

tl;dr:
1)Pet needs a bit of love.
2)HoT/Gheal needs some fine tuning.
3)DS gets a shiny new paint job. Giving them more versatility.
 
If druids are ever going to be viable in 6-man content a quicker group heal is not going to cut it by itself. The biggest advantage clerics have has nothing to do with the number of hit points they heal for or the cast times of their spells, it's with hots. Hots are ridiculously amazingly super powerful in 6-man. They are also why paladins are ridiculously amazingly overpowered in 6 man and why their new hot is way too good BUT OFF TOPIC THERE.

Druids need a foresty nature-filled love muffin of a large, long duration regen buff in single target and group form. Just like cleric hots but longer and for much much less. This kind of spell goes hand and hand with their less-hp heals and their long group heal; it means druids have to be the planner of the healers with great vision of the future. It would give them a unique niche which is clearly not as powerful as clerics and rewards them for playing proactively instead of reactively.
 
No, he is just pissed I make him let me play Xoui for things.

On topic, I have to say my druid is probably my least favorite character to raid with. I literally feel like the only reason I am there is because you can't bring four clerics.
 
Manguadi said:
None of this makes it okay for certain classes like druids to be categorically inferior. Also which class would you only "ever" have one of?

Your argument is basically "this game is easy enough that it doesn't matter." Also these strawmen you keep kicking over are really compelling. Your claim about raids not needing to be optimal is pretty bad too since it hinges on the point that you're doing things which aren't hard enough for you.
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In general would you ever bring, more than one war/sk/pal/shm/bard/enc etc etc. The real argument here is Healing is important omg clerics are the best at healing so lets get as many of them in the raid as possible, well no shit sherlock. This doesn't make druids worthless in anyway, it just means they are not as good of healers as clerics.

The reason that raids don't have 3 druids is the same reason they dont have SK or Pal maintanks, wars are simply much much better. There are many classes that are simply the best at their role even if other classes can perform it as well. The only sad thing is that druids do not bring enough specialty in the form of buffs / debuffs to make not having one especially noticable. In my opinion the pet could use a boost, cascading vim could use a few more tics on the HoT and DS and Regen could be given some boosts to the point where you want them on you whenever you raid.

Also, this game IS easy, notice the part where I said "especially lower tiers" and "you work with what you got" not every guild has the target list or the character pool of TU. An up and coming guild could easily have a druid in place of a cleric and still beat on tier encounters.

Otcho said:
The main druid problem is that their group heal casts too slow to make them viable for high dps end game content atleast in terms of being the sole healer, it sucks.
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End game content, like when they will have enough mana for cascading vim, which has a 4 sec cast time.... oh shit guess they solved your problem already.
 
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Miffy said:
End game content, like when they will have enough mana for cascading vim, which has a 4 sec cast time.... oh shit guess they solved your problem already.
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You obviously know nothing about endgame content. 1010 mana is a lot of mana for a heal that gets overwritten by both sham and cleric hots. and on raids usually does.

Plus Cascading Vim is NOT a gheal... it is a ghot. And the 1st large portion wont land if cleric or sham hots are ticking
 
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