DPS

[Wiz]

OK, I'm going to make this short. This is a discussion thread for some changes I have in mind for DPS.

The current problems with DPS are:

- Melee disparity between raid and exp mobs.

Essentially, because of the current to hit calculation, there is a huge disparity in what melee dishes out to raid versus exp mobs. By huge I mean 200 vs 300 dps for a top-equipped rogue. As well as making it hard to properly balance the lines between these mobs, it leads us on to point 2:

- Melee vs caster disparity in sustained damage

This is mostly a product of AAs which are creating the problem above - melees having a 85% or so hit chance against a level 60 mob. As pets do not gain this advantage and there is no comparable AAs for mana regeneration, this is throwing sustained damage gaps out of whack, with a warrior having higher sustained damage than a magician of comparable equipment against exp mobs - while the magician was more efficent against a raid mob!

- Solution

To fix this, I am planning to instute an avoidance cap on NPCs at level 60 which is comparable to the to hit cap of melees (250 offensive and 250 weapon skill). I am however planning to make both non-raid NPCs and players miss somewhat more. This should bring all melee DPS in line somewhere between the present raid vs exp (probably further towards the low scale, to be truthful) while keeping the game challenge the same. Or to use simpler terms: Melees will be more efficent against raid mobs and less efficent against exp mobs.

This should hopefully fix disparity problems between casters and melees in groups.

Please feel free to post any comments here. Save the sarcasm for your guildchat though.

 

[Wiz]

For a frame of reference, my general idea of how classes potential for DPS (not including buffing others' DPS) should be ordered:

1: Rogue (Sustained master), Wizard (Burst master, decent to good sustained)

2: Monk, Ranger, Magician, Necromancer

3: Warrior, Druid, Beastlord

4: Knights, Shaman, Cleric, Enchanter, Bard

On scale of DPS reliance... note that this isn't ordered by how good the class is at it, only how much of its DPS is on which end of the scale.

BURST ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSTAINED
Wizard | Druid Enchanter | Magician Cleric | Shaman Necromancer | Ranger Shadowknight Paladin | Beastlord Bard | Warrior Monk Rogue

 

[Duma]

All I can say is this seems ot have the possibilty of altering a lot of things including the targeted issue at hand. :? :?

 

[limitedthoughts]

Weve alterd things before. Maybe setting it up be being ready for a roll back wouldnt be to bad?

Im for trying it.

 

[Wiz]

All I can say is this seems ot have the possibilty of altering a lot of things including the targeted issue at hand. :? :?

Like?

 

[limitedthoughts]

Well recently.

Charm was one that you were switching around.

I remember a huge melee change when my rogue stopped backstabbing for 500 + normaly and when down to 132.

Then we had the thing with the Mob agro that was switchd around and messed with. We adapted.

I belive this might be a good idea for you to do Wiz and if its not quite what you want I have full faith you will be able to alter it till it is.

 

[Duma]

Won't this increase the time it takes to kill a mob?

Decrease the ammount of mobs you can kill before you start getting backspawns?

Decrease overall exp an hour.

Increase effeciency of mana used for healing?

Make killing certain mobs, like Simulacrums (level 60?), impossible since they were very nearly impossible before even with higher sustained melee dps and 2 nukers hammering their best spell repeatedly.

Not do anything to actually make nukers more effecient in fights they can't get a spell curse thrown on the mob.

Essentially you are slowing down time with this "treading water" system so melee pc's and mobs do the same overall damage just slower. Melee's account for their damage in different ways not just how frequently and accurately they hit. So changing a single aspect of combat, avoidance, will brutalize some classes (warrior/beast/ranger) more then others (rogues/monks/).

In the end I don't think all the numbers are going to line up correctly, or atleast where you would like them to. Then there is all that stuff up there^^^^

 

[limitedthoughts]

This should bring all melee DPS in line somewhere between the present raid vs exp (probably further towards the low scale, to be truthful) while keeping the game challenge the same. Or to use simpler terms: Melees will be more efficent against raid mobs and less efficent against exp mobs.

Wiz said this. In other words things wont change to to much probably be easier for Ch chain. The mobs will hit w/ less damage and the melee's will do the same. Pets will top out a little better and things should go on!.

 

[diolas]

Wiz said this. In other words things wont change to to much probably be easier for Ch chain.

I don't think raids will get any easier. According to what wizzy said, raid npc's will stay the same.

I am however planning to make both non-raid NPCs and players miss somewhat more.

What sort of numbers are we talking about any ways? Am I looking at like a 30% more miss chance or more like 10%?

 

[limitedthoughts]

Look at wiz's second post too. It shows a little more of what he wants to do.

I think this is just going to balance a little more.

If a mob is hitting for 800 quad and misses 10% more and we total out our warrior dps at 300 and they miss 10% more who do you think might win?

 

[Wiz]

Won't this increase the time it takes to kill a mob?

Decrease the ammount of mobs you can kill before you start getting backspawns?

Decrease overall exp an hour.

Increase effeciency of mana used for healing?

Make killing certain mobs, like Simulacrums (level 60?), impossible since they were very nearly impossible before even with higher sustained melee dps and 2 nukers hammering their best spell repeatedly.

Well, obviously, but if magicians had a spell that did 9000 dps and it was nerfed that would lower exp/hour too.

Simulacrums are removed from the game. And even if they weren't, that's a pathetically easy issue to fix.

The change to mobs hit rate is slight. It won't affect raid-type mobs either.

You're really just throwing up smoke screens. Yeah, exp rate will decrease some for the 4-rogue groups. I can live with that. The alternatives were increasing mana regen massively or increasing spell efficency massively - which would both break the shit out of the raid game.

Not do anything to actually make nukers more effecient in fights they can't get a spell curse thrown on the mob.

This sentence makes no sense. At all.

Essentially you are slowing down time with this "treading water" system so melee pc's and mobs do the same overall damage just slower. Melee's account for their damage in different ways not just how frequently and accurately they hit. So changing a single aspect of combat, avoidance, will brutalize some classes (warrior/beast/ranger) more then others (rogues/monks/).

That's a lot of words for saying nothing. How will it "brutalize" these poor warriors, beastlords and rangers?

Also the mob hit change is small, it's only so that soloability will not change in the low and mid game for melees, nearly the entire change is player-end.

In the end I don't think all the numbers are going to line up correctly, or atleast where you would like them to. Then there is all that stuff up there^^^^

Yep, that's what you usually say (for example, the great balancing patch). You haven't been right to date.

 

[Ponden]

By huge I mean 200 vs 300 dps for a top-equipped rogue.

I am assuming you are refering to the DPS tests we did a few days ago. If so, then the real numbers for me were:
205-210 dps on the Tower of Tarhyl (Trial 2) Warden.
260 dps on the froglok mageblade.

The 300 DPS was from using a seperate piercer for testing purposes. The above 2 numbers are with my "current" equipment setup. (Im a rogue, incase that wasnt obvious.)

I do not think the changes proposed will help casters in groups. What Mage were you comparing to (which) Warrior to determine that mages had lower constant DPS on xp mobs? (I cant think of a single mage with comparable AAs and equipment as the top end warriors.)

After the melee DPS tests, I tried to talk to kathgar about what would be a good solution to fix wizards vs rogue balance. On a single target raid mob, he blows away my total damage, (even on a long duration fight which is questionable!) But on multiple mobs, and or fast paced xp groups, he is essentially worthless and can only throw out around 1/4 my Total Damage. (Feel free to change Rogue to Warrior, and Wizard to Mage - same idea.)

I dont want my accuracy to go down again, It feels like all my work getting those accuracy AA, and maxing dexterity were for nothing. I would much rather see casters get bumped up better with AA/items. Some pet focii would go a long way to helping this, and even some more spell damage focus like Symbol of Shojar's Chosen. Nerfing down melee dps (again) should just cause these same problems to pop back up in a few months. A rogue with Twilight Rapier, Everlasting Icicle, or Tarhyl's Spear, will be in the same position in terms of melee vs caster damage.

(added edits)
Will these changes make it even harder for me to solo green and lightblue con mobs?
Wouldnt the mage pet do more damage on xp mobs, and less on raid mobs? -- just like melee characters? (I may be missing something here...)

 

[Wiz]

Pet hit calculations are different from melee calculcations.

What I'm saying is exactly the point. It's not reasonable for a rogue to do twice the sustained damage of the magician. I am not basing this on the DPS tests we did, I am basing it on this + other tests + extensive tests I did on devserver.

Your accuracy will go down against exp mobs, there is no other way to fix the disparity without breaking the game. If I have to take rogues quitting over it - so be it. I would rather lose half the players than deal with a game with so gross imbalances between casters and melees.

 

[Ponden]

No one said they were going to quit, Wiz. Im trying to be helpful by offering some suggestions on how to balance out casters sucking. From what I have read about EQlive, they have the same issue, except its been going on much longer. I like playing on this server because of the custom content, and if you decide to change it around, thats fine by me. I <3 WR. If rogues are not supposed to do twice as much DPS as a mage, how much should mages do? how much should rogues do? From your second post, you placed Mages closer to the burst side. I think just toss out some hard numbers like you had a few days ago, (IE Warriors 1, monks 1.25 or whatever it was) For all the casters and melee, then balance to it. I dont think anyone would have any complaints about that.

Lowering melee accuracy on xp mobs, or on raid mobs, seems to be just a short term fix for a long term problem. If rogues are not supposed to do 2x sustained mage DPS, how will this fix that? Rogues scale at a insane rate to primary weaponry and unless the mage scales too, this wont be a long term fix. (Keep in mind im not saying do not make this change. Just that, more needs to come out of this then just the proposed ideas or we will run into this again.)

 

[Wiz]

I think, personally, this was the final tweak needed on melee calcs. They've needed changing time and again because the old disparities had problems and so on. I'm gonna strive to advance caster itemization with focuses in line with new haste items and weapon ratios so this isn't an issue again.

 

[Eredhel]

I'm obviously one of the newer players that can't, nor wouldn't, get into all the raid discussions...Nor can I say too much about the exp part, since I'm still in my early 50's.

I do have a question though. Is 60+ on WR geared entirely for raids and raids only? I ask because the discussion seems to be going that way. I would like to enjoy raiding on occasions of course, but exping is still a fun thing for me. Is this the kind of change that will make melee exping out of whack for the sake of raiding? I'm speaking from WR SK knowledge, however slight it may be.

Just hoping that the adjustments of raid versus exp melee won't be such that raiding becomes the only higher end availability.

Not complaining, just curious. I doubt even a change for the most extreme would keep me from enjoying my time exping, slow or fast.

Eredhel

 

[Bernat]

Regarding the caster's side of the problem, could it be possible to make pets gain the caster's combat aa's benefits? This would make pet casters better at xp'ing, I think (also bst, so this may be unbalancing for them). As for wizards, then don't get pets, but they could just have their spells improved, with nice damage/mana ratio and a huge (decent?) recast time to try to make them less raid desirable.


As for melees, the only thing that comes to my mind right now would be some type of combat mode that makes them fight better but gets them a Rezz like effect after combat (to prevent the use on exp mobs).

Is anything suitable/doable?

EDIT: added a missing word ;P

 

[Wiz]

I'm obviously one of the newer players that can't, nor wouldn't, get into all the raid discussions...Nor can I say too much about the exp part, since I'm still in my early 50's.

I do have a question though. Is 60+ on WR geared entirely for raids and raids only? I ask because the discussion seems to be going that way. I would like to enjoy raiding on occasions of course, but exping is still a fun thing for me. Is this the kind of change that will make melee exping out of whack for the sake of raiding? I'm speaking from WR SK knowledge, however slight it may be.

Just hoping that the adjustments of raid versus exp melee won't be such that raiding becomes the only higher end availability.

Not complaining, just curious. I doubt even a change for the most extreme would keep me from enjoying my time exping, slow or fast.

Eredhel

No, not at all. There is plenty of one-group content available, and far from just grinds.

 

[limitedthoughts]

Theres actualy alot of places for a level 60 to go solo or group.

WR has a couple big guilds that raid alot and that means that they are just concerned about whats going on.

 

[Eredhel]

Great to hear. I assumed as much, considering how well the content has been designed up to now (read as, all I have seen.) Just had to check!

Eredhel