DHK Elites
- Thread starter kathor
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Mean Gorilla
Dalayan Beginner
Over the last month or so, Aeternus ("An up and coming guild") has been dipping its feet in NDHK. From my personal experience there, I'd say the only elites that may need to be toned down are the Wyrm elites in the rampage department. Diolas did bring up lowering the rampage to one aux tank, or maybe lowering rampage dmg might be another option. Either would be nice to see. Yes, wyrm elites hit harder and rampage, but in general you will not be fighting them anywhere near the volume you'll be fighting drakes/wyvern elites and I don't believe they were meant to be the same difficulty. As far as wyvern/drake elites, I personally don't see a problem with their hp/dps hit roughly 200-400 on average and their hps go down about the same as a single group fighting wyvern/drake soldiers.
As for NDHK names, I'd say Ndhk names are far more difficult than any elite if that is your argument. Aside from Ylaak, all NDHK names have fears along with AEs ranging from DDs to mana drains. You brought up Nartalizia being just a range fight, but the truth is healers on the MT have to sit in the rains the entire fight, which I would consider being far more difficult than a regular elite fight. Anywhoo thats my 2 cents ~Braxx
As for NDHK names, I'd say Ndhk names are far more difficult than any elite if that is your argument. Aside from Ylaak, all NDHK names have fears along with AEs ranging from DDs to mana drains. You brought up Nartalizia being just a range fight, but the truth is healers on the MT have to sit in the rains the entire fight, which I would consider being far more difficult than a regular elite fight. Anywhoo thats my 2 cents ~Braxx
Glamrin
Staff Emeritus
Looking at Aeternus memberlist counting lvl 65s you have 3 wizards, 2 necromancers, 1 warrior, 1 ranger, 1 paladin, 1 monk, 1 enchanter, 1 beastlord and 3 bards. for healers, 3 clerics, 1 druid, 3 shamans.
Im just going to take a wild guess and say that not much of your dps on raids comes from melee´s... ie you wouldnt be as affected by the problem as a guild with more melee dps in the raidforce. Your mt has 6161hp and 1213 ac ie a bit higher than guilds that have no problems with poa and pot but have problems with ndhk. In other words Aeternus setup is not a good example for troubles with the zone or saying it works fine.
Im just going to take a wild guess and say that not much of your dps on raids comes from melee´s... ie you wouldnt be as affected by the problem as a guild with more melee dps in the raidforce. Your mt has 6161hp and 1213 ac ie a bit higher than guilds that have no problems with poa and pot but have problems with ndhk. In other words Aeternus setup is not a good example for troubles with the zone or saying it works fine.
Glamrin said:
That is, of course, if that memberlist were a true representation of what shows up to our usual raids
. It is certainly not, but still, we are not a melee heavy guild. We never have 3 wizards, we've had 2 necros once in the last few months, never a paladin, and no ENC over the last month or so. As for our MT, well, he has come up through the "circuit" so to say, just like anyone else who came from nothing. I mean, does it sound so rediculous to say that if your MT simply cannot tank this zone then maybe you shouldn't be there? I'm not looking to defend NDHK by any means, but IMO the zone has worked well in our line of progression as far as difficulty, reward, and effort.If I had to say the "key" to NDHK, I would say it comes by the way of a couple good pullers and a raid force who knows what they are doing, while being decently equipped. We wouldn't bother wasting our time in NDHK if our tank had 5k hp and if someone does, well, then it's certainly reasonable to expect more problems considering NDHK is not entry level and nowhere near easy POA or POT.
Jun
Dalayan Beginner
hooden said:
Just curious, does your experience include the northernmost part of NDHK (TR and the hall directly outside it)? I think this is basically the area people regularly have issues with, as there are 3 (technically 4) nameds directly around each other, and getting to/pulling these nameds can be difficult for some raids due to the trash layout before them (Not to mention the actual TR pull consists of 2 NDHK Dragons and one WW type dragon, no pull in SE includes more than one named mob and only one pull in SE even comes close to the difficulty of the TR pull). If it isnt done quickly and efficiently enough, youll get in a loop as Eldorath stated earlier.
That being said I have no real personal opinion on this matter since Im only really experienced raiding on this tier prior to the changes made to the trash and way way prior to 2.0. (Ive been to NDHK a few times recently, but never with a raid solely comprised of characters just breaking into NDHK)
Glamrin
Staff Emeritus
Braxx also has 300 aa´s which is more than many characters that raid in inner prison and thaz tower have.. ie aeternus isnt the best example for the purpose. Also as for the quest gems that drops from these mobs I dont believe the ornate armor would be an upgrade for any of braxx´s slots... ie for a force that can raid there without problems, the quest armor isnt upgrades.
for tank classes where mt has 5500 hp or more I dont think there are any upgrades in ornate armor, ie the melees need to be at a higher tier than the drops to be able to do NDHK. as for difficulty.. take skywatchers for example.. I would be surprised if a raidforce could clear to them but wouldnt be able to kill (unless they make huge mistakes on that encounter).
for tank classes where mt has 5500 hp or more I dont think there are any upgrades in ornate armor, ie the melees need to be at a higher tier than the drops to be able to do NDHK. as for difficulty.. take skywatchers for example.. I would be surprised if a raidforce could clear to them but wouldnt be able to kill (unless they make huge mistakes on that encounter).
Glamrin said:
Ornate armor is severely underpowered and would be near worthless if it didn't have a clicky on the bp. Braxx never used much and neither has anyone in our guild. Shadowsilk and even Cmal gear basically makes ornate armor obsolete save a couple pieces for pure casters (and you can never go on a raid or even a group to get 4.5kish mana from mere tradeskill items). This is a whole other issue.
However, the ornate armor is not NDHK "drops" in the context that they come from NDHK quest items from elites not named. As I said before, if the tank in the raidforce had around 5k hp, they should expect elites to be hard because they still can get upgrades from basic ornate armor. I also wouldn't imagine that same force would do well against the named in NDHK. It's just a matter of step by step progression.
Glamrin
Staff Emeritus
There is no problem with the difficulty of ndhk nameds.. those seem to be as they should.. its the trashmobs that is the problem, not only for the tank but for melees in general (and ofcourse the quick spawntimes is a problem because of their difficulty). Glim (my beastlord) can die towards these trashmobs and is still able to tank lvl 65+ nameds. Basically the trashmobs dont seem quite balanced for the tier Im guessing theyre supposed to be aimed at considering their loot, comparing them to the difficulty of nameds in the zone and considering that with the 18 man limit some guilds will be more caster heavy or more melee heavy than others while others will be balanced.. As admitted Aeternus seems to be caster heavy and low on melee dps for their raids ie theyre not as affected by this as a balanced or melee dps heavy guild would be and thus Aeternus is not a perfect example for wether the situation is fine as it is or not.
Anyways some of this I said before, so leaving it at that to not fill up this thread with unecessary repetitions.
JDJersey
Dalayan Elder
Whether or not Aeternius has a problem with the trash mobs, in my mind, is irrelevant to whether or not theyre over-powered. The question lies in how hard they are in comparison to the named mobs. If the trash is as big or bigger a stopping point than the nameds theyre guarding, then there is a problem. I haven't seen many arguements about the wyrm elites being considerably easier than the named, but have seen arguements, though the general consensus seems to be they are hard compared to the named.
So, it is of my opinion that the trash mobs should be downgraded slightly. the best option, i think, is to reduce either the ramp damage or the number of people they ramp on, or both.
So, it is of my opinion that the trash mobs should be downgraded slightly. the best option, i think, is to reduce either the ramp damage or the number of people they ramp on, or both.
Allielyn
*Pony*
Latten said:
[derail]
I think you mean to say, nDHK is crappy to raid without a bard. Almost every pull, trash or not, has a heavy AE. As a result, it's almost necessary to have a bard with pot4 (or elemental/purifying chorus) on a ndhk raid.
If a bard is getting rampage, that's either the fault of the raid makeup or the bard. Rampage will hit the top three people on the engage list that are within range: not top three on the aggro list. Stay back with the healers until three others have engaged, then start your casting/singing thing. If you don't have three others, don't go in.
I hate to have to say it, but bards' major raid role is NOT melee dps. You might have to sacrifice it on some mobs. Be thankful you can do so and still be useful.
[/derail]
Harziel
Dalayan Beginner
Speaking as the underdog main tank for one of the "up and coming" guilds...
4456hp, 995ac. Just hit 65 recently (Yay me!)
Just a handful of AAs, and our guild's been looking to do DHK mobs as well.....
The way its being described, I don't think we'll ever touch DHK for quite awhile if the trash mobs are hitting for 600s and so forth.... We really don't have that many MT's to spare for rampage tanking either (heck I'm the only main tank so far), also, a good portion of our dps comes from straight meleers or pet dps.
Dunno about you but Stormseye and Stormkeep are starting to look like better and better raid zones if DHK really is that hard. Dah well, theres always planes and other raid zones to try until then
4456hp, 995ac. Just hit 65 recently (Yay me!)
Just a handful of AAs, and our guild's been looking to do DHK mobs as well.....
The way its being described, I don't think we'll ever touch DHK for quite awhile if the trash mobs are hitting for 600s and so forth.... We really don't have that many MT's to spare for rampage tanking either (heck I'm the only main tank so far), also, a good portion of our dps comes from straight meleers or pet dps.
Dunno about you but Stormseye and Stormkeep are starting to look like better and better raid zones if DHK really is that hard. Dah well, theres always planes and other raid zones to try until then
Lilbrateeboie said:Speaking as the underdog main tank for one of the "up and coming" guilds...
4456hp, 995ac. Just hit 65 recently (Yay me!)
Just a handful of AAs, and our guild's been looking to do DHK mobs as well.....
The way its being described, I don't think we'll ever touch DHK for quite awhile if the trash mobs are hitting for 600s and so forth.... We really don't have that many MT's to spare for rampage tanking either (heck I'm the only main tank so far), also, a good portion of our dps comes from straight meleers or pet dps.
Dunno about you but Stormseye and Stormkeep are starting to look like better and better raid zones if DHK really is that hard. Dah well, theres always planes and other raid zones to try until then
NDHK is not entry level though, so you shouldn't worry about mobs being too tough there. Once you can do WDHK then you are closer to being able to do NDHK, but make no mistake, there is still a gap in progress between WDHK and NDHK.
Allielyn
*Pony*
Lilbrateeboie said:Speaking as the underdog main tank for one of the "up and coming" guilds...
4456hp, 995ac. Just hit 65 recently (Yay me!)
Just a handful of AAs, and our guild's been looking to do DHK mobs as well.....
The way its being described, I don't think we'll ever touch DHK for quite awhile if the trash mobs are hitting for 600s and so forth.... We really don't have that many MT's to spare for rampage tanking either (heck I'm the only main tank so far), also, a good portion of our dps comes from straight meleers or pet dps.
Dunno about you but Stormseye and Stormkeep are starting to look like better and better raid zones if DHK really is that hard. Dah well, theres always planes and other raid zones to try until then
I honestly don't think that a guild with this makeup should be unable to do nDHK trash mobs. They may not be able to do nameds, but I don't see why you shouldn't be able to farm trash mobs for armor upgrades well before you're able to do nameds.
The point here is, if you have to be able to drop the nameds before you can even hope be good enough to clear through the trash; then the trash is too hard.