You could give somebody the opportunity to play/box a useful toon in the raid, then reward them with loot on their character under different circumstances(easier fight, not 3 of that class already etc). Or they can play their character, die to the first AE, or run oom/contribute essentially nothing and spend the entire raid sitting at bind (not fun). Or you can just not play with underprogressed people at all(which would be bad).There is no confusion you want new people to play your chars for you. got it.
I think gear is much less of a problem than raid slots/class restrictions. If someone wanted to raid with me and were competent/willing to learn/play other characters for the time being, they are already more desirable than the majority of geared people.
. It is an unfortunate design flaw when there is a serious discussion in this thread about earning the right to play your own characters- absolutely ridiculous in a mmorpg and that people can't see that or refuse to acknowledge that it is a necessary evil from bad design is sad.
Most people don't start playing a game wanting to play other peoples characters to get anywhere raiding wise. You pretty much admitted it to being a gearing problem (although charms and tomes also come in to play here) to an extent, by saying it is okay as long as they play someones geared toon. If it was easier to become a "geared" player, then people would not have to play someone elses toon. Although this is something people might not mind, I think most players would rather play their own character. And this is coming from someone who pretty much exclusively played other peoples toons when I raided.I think gear is much less of a problem than raid slots/class restrictions. If someone wanted to raid with me and were competent/willing to learn/play other characters for the time being, they are already more desirable than the majority of geared people.
I have always felt like the biggest barrier to entry problem on current SoD is the fact that the only way to gear up a fresh character these days is buying items.
When I first started playing in 2008 there was a vibrant community based around doing Tmaps and low 60's dungeons. As the population shrunk it became harder and harder to get groups for these things. To top it off the when ikisith was released the droppables were so much better than anything else that the best way to gear up became just farming plat by yourself rather than actually engaging with other people. This kills the game for anyone looking for the social aspect they expect from Everquest.
I feel like rebalancing all of the pre dhk/storms eye stuff into 6 mans, and rebalancing the loot as well as rebalancing the tmap loot would go a huge distance in making the game more accessible. Sure it's a lot of work but it would help new players a ton.
Also holy shit move the storm king to the end of storms eye where he belongs.
I think with the currently awful population it would be better to have more effort put into 6 or 12 man things at any tier.
Also to revert any dumb exp nerfs(citadel). In fact just make exp easier than ever. I seriously think some of the staff have never talked to new players or tried to convince people to play this game. The amount of effort to play is daunting. I remember when SOD toted having a better exp rate than live, hell I cannot even fathom what year it must have been comparing it too. Having ran down the check lists to make a character "good" made p99 look accessible.
Also in regards to charms I always thought it was a cool idea to have raid zone clears or first boss kills give you cash dollar credits but a lot of people took offense to that for some reason.
Shrouding would be cool too.
Most people don't start playing a game wanting to play other peoples characters to get anywhere raiding wise. You pretty much admitted it to being a gearing problem (although charms and tomes also come in to play here) to an extent, by saying it is okay as long as they play someones geared toon. If it was easier to become a "geared" player, then people would not have to play someone elses toon. Although this is something people might not mind, I think most players would rather play their own character. And this is coming from someone who pretty much exclusively played other peoples toons when I raided.
Unfortunately having an optimal raid setup is a universal problem when it comes to raiding in MMOs. Thankfully most of the time it isn't necessary to min max to that extent, and that is true here as well. But it is kind of a separate issue. We are talking about making relevant raiding accessible to newer players in a smooth manner, and having you box someones toon until yours finally gets geared enough is not what I would call smooth.
Having an optimal raid only really comes into play towards the end of the game anymore. But even getting the 4th monk into the raid when the other 3 are all mains means you might as well not invite the 4th monk to the guild in the first place. I've turned down many more people due to their class than the fact they were not geared enough to do my guilds current top content. I completely agree that current new guys have no way to play catch up other than relying completely on other people. Whether that is playing other peoples toons to have a chance at loot later or relying on those people to carry you through the content.
So here is my suggestion. New characters gain a reward currency based on how far they are progressing their character. The currency can be used to buy old thaz class armor and old weapons around that tier.
100 currency for getting 65
100 for first 50 aa
100 for 100 aa
100 for 200 aa
100 for 300
100 for 400
100 for max class AAs
100 for a 38k charm
100 for 100k charm
100 for completing mq to high seeker
100 for murk shield completed
100 for mq to 5th seeker
100 for murk spell or melee codex from refugee
50 per tome completed until you cap out your currency needed to buy a complete set of gear
Something like that would mean people get a chance to progress their character outside of relying completely on the hospitality of others.
edit: items would cost 100 in this sample so 1 step of progress = 1 item
Having an optimal raid only really comes into play towards the end of the game anymore. But even getting the 4th monk into the raid when the other 3 are all mains means you might as well not invite the 4th monk to the guild in the first place. I've turned down many more people due to their class than the fact they were not geared enough to do my guilds current top content. I completely agree that current new guys have no way to play catch up other than relying completely on other people. Whether that is playing other peoples toons to have a chance at loot later or relying on those people to carry you through the content.
So here is my suggestion. New characters gain a reward currency based on how far they are progressing their character. The currency can be used to buy old thaz class armor and old weapons around that tier.
100 currency for getting 65
100 for first 50 aa
100 for 100 aa
100 for 200 aa
100 for 300
100 for 400
100 for max class AAs
100 for a 38k charm
100 for 100k charm
100 for completing mq to high seeker
100 for murk shield completed
100 for mq to 5th seeker
100 for murk spell or melee codex from refugee
50 per tome completed until you cap out your currency needed to buy a complete set of gear
Something like that would mean people get a chance to progress their character outside of relying completely on the hospitality of others.
edit: items would cost 100 in this sample so 1 step of progress = 1 item
I don't know about the rest of the post, but this is something I've liked the idea of doing for ages, specifically with regards to adding higher level adepts (from a post by @Fulgrin in May of 2015)...Reappropriating low tier (1-5ish) 18 man content into some alternative 6/12 man content
You could turn some of the T1-4 raid zone end-bosses into adepts (I'm thinking 12-mannable?) with fresh loot tables that are somewhere in between BOEs and T5. The adepts could either be capped as I proposed above, or you could try to code in something that would let in 65's but lock them out if they had more than a certain number of AAs... Either way, you don't throw away existing content, you bridge the gap into the raid game, and you incentivize doing this stuff on tier and not just ringering the whole thing for your alts.YES! In my mind, it isn't that there is a lack of stuff to at that low levels, it's that there is a lack of incentive to do what is there! Many loots from Lv55-T4 are worse than BOEs. The adept loot seems to be the exception, but instead of designing a bunch of new adepts (WAY too many man-hours), why not take a few of the lower tier raid mobs (gnok, lavascale, warp, etc) and convert them from raid targets into higher level adepts (59, 61, 63)? This way, you pay tribute to old content without re-inventing the wheel. Many of these mobs are ONLY sniped for ancients, and IMO one could easily leave ancients to drop on prospective lv 61 or 63 adepts. Tuning these encounters down to that level shouldn't be too bad because they are mostly simple strategies. It would ultimately come down to just re-doing the loot, a bit of scaling, and not a whole lot else. This helps to fill in the gear-gap before raiding, gives more 12 man targets that are killed by the people they were designed for (and not a two box of ringers with their buddy who needs an ancient) - and it provides a means to kill fun world mobs within the existing adept paradigm.
Until there is a progression path for newer players besides scumming in on T11 raids, playing other toons, or being carried across content this game will never return to its former level of popularity.
Old low tier raids tuned as 6 man, upgraded loot. Bounties, dailies, something. If a new player cannot 60% catch up to a veteran toon in 6 months, nothing will change.
I hate agreeing with lleoc so much.Having an optimal raid only really comes into play towards the end of the game anymore. But even getting the 4th monk into the raid when the other 3 are all mains means you might as well not invite the 4th monk to the guild in the first place. I've turned down many more people due to their class than the fact they were not geared enough to do my guilds current top content. I completely agree that current new guys have no way to play catch up other than relying completely on other people. Whether that is playing other peoples toons to have a chance at loot later or relying on those people to carry you through the content.
So here is my suggestion. New characters gain a reward currency based on how far they are progressing their character. The currency can be used to buy old thaz class armor and old weapons around that tier.
100 currency for getting 65
100 for first 50 aa
100 for 100 aa
100 for 200 aa
100 for 300
100 for 400
100 for max class AAs
100 for a 38k charm
100 for 100k charm
100 for completing mq to high seeker
100 for murk shield completed
100 for mq to 5th seeker
100 for murk spell or melee codex from refugee
50 per tome completed until you cap out your currency needed to buy a complete set of gear
Something like that would mean people get a chance to progress their character outside of relying completely on the hospitality of others.
edit: items would cost 100 in this sample so 1 step of progress = 1 item
The problem is clearly stated in this post and I have to admit that something like this seems like a really good idea, albeit, a lot of work. Going to play devil's advocate and say wouldn't this trivialize nearly all lower level content?Having an optimal raid only really comes into play towards the end of the game anymore. But even getting the 4th monk into the raid when the other 3 are all mains means you might as well not invite the 4th monk to the guild in the first place. I've turned down many more people due to their class than the fact they were not geared enough to do my guilds current top content. I completely agree that current new guys have no way to play catch up other than relying completely on other people. Whether that is playing other peoples toons to have a chance at loot later or relying on those people to carry you through the content.
So here is my suggestion. New characters gain a reward currency based on how far they are progressing their character. The currency can be used to buy old thaz class armor and old weapons around that tier.
100 currency for getting 65
100 for first 50 aa
100 for 100 aa
100 for 200 aa
100 for 300
100 for 400
100 for max class AAs
100 for a 38k charm
100 for 100k charm
100 for completing mq to high seeker
100 for murk shield completed
100 for mq to 5th seeker
100 for murk spell or melee codex from refugee
50 per tome completed until you cap out your currency needed to buy a complete set of gear
Something like that would mean people get a chance to progress their character outside of relying completely on the hospitality of others.
edit: items would cost 100 in this sample so 1 step of progress = 1 item