Clickies

Bridger said:
Just off the top of my head

Summon Food
Summon Drink
Invisibility
Levitation
Summon Mod Rod
DS

It is actually more difficult to find things that a Mage can do that are Not covered by clickies.
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Yea, i've got this clicky that makes turns me into a mage and makes me the tomed runic mage that is out dpsing better geared/more tomed rogues in xp groups.

Or wait, I don't.

That was hard to find.


I'm really trying to grasp what is wrong with clickies here, taesh ear is nice, but it doesn't even come close to real caster dps. Click heals and procs are sweet, but they don't make up for druid/shaman/cleric healing.

-Summon mod rod is replaced by clickies? No. The clickies stack with them.
-DS is replaced by clickies?! No. Relic DS is so much better than any clicky ds its not even funny
-Mages can summon better food/watter, but is this really something you care about?
-Levitation is best used from DMF due to resists, but again, something you really care about?
-Invis is just a time sink. (Why isn't enchanter ancient invis raid wide, casting ST invis over and over is a time sink that is just silly - I may make a thread about this.)

Most lcickeis Arlain brought up are either little bonuses for soloing and grouping, or something hardly even useful on raids. Earings are tight, Purity is cool, but i've never been around where either of those made the difference. Not to mention, that neither of them come close to replacing the class function of which the type of spell is.
 
I mean really though yall, is someone gonna say no, we don't need a nuker, we have someone with a taeshlin ear. We don't need a mage. We already have a summon food clicky. None of these examples show anything that replaces a class. They're clickies. That's it. Half of them have a recast long enough that even if they did do something to "replace" a class you'd still need said class for the 95% of the time they were unusable. I mean do you really get mad in groups when someone doesn't ask you to summon them some food because they have a clicky? I guess I just don't get the argument. I haven't seen a single clicky mentioned that replaces anyone.
 
Faelus said:
Ok so Cleric wasnt really intended to intersect into DPS caster, but I mean you kind of get the point. Your diagonals analogy makes 0 sense. Sorry.
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diagonals wasn't part of my explanation, the word was used in a witty way to suggest a line going from one corner of a square to the opposing polar opposite corner. By drawing triangles and lines placed randomly on a mspaint canvas you do nothing at all to carry a point.

The fact that the idea made more sense to you before you drew your picture might carry a better point.
 
huey said:
I mean really though yall, is someone gonna say no, we don't need a nuker, we have someone with a taeshlin ear. We don't need a mage. We already have a summon food clicky. None of these examples show anything that replaces a class. They're clickies. That's it. Half of them have a recast long enough that even if they did do something to "replace" a class you'd still need said class for the 95% of the time they were unusable. I mean do you really get mad in groups when someone doesn't ask you to summon them some food because they have a clicky? I guess I just don't get the argument. I haven't seen a single clicky mentioned that replaces anyone.
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I never said they replaced anyone entirely, i simply said they create reasonable alternatives to a true class with a diminished potency, which often is enough to fill your 6 with someone who offers more utility.
 
I guess I just don't agree. Those clickies don't touch anyone's main role at all. If someone decides against a mage (just as an example) because of some clicky they possess then you're probably better off staying away from that group.
 
Now...I got a lot of clickies. I love and abuse my clickies to a gloriously rediculous extent.

With ALLLLLLL my clickies (and procs, let's throw in procs too, why not), as a 65 rogue, I was able to replace...a lvl 51 paladin, and...uh....well, I can do fairly awful rain once every 30 minutes. I can chain cast dispell, leaving me able to do nothing else but backstab between casts, losing about...oh 60% or more of my DPS.

What else...I can kill a green con citizen once every so often with my OP swarm pets (gtfo mages) AND I can replace a like...idk lvl 30-something necro pet?

The biggest gripe I see in this thread so far is that one mage is mad b/c other clickies are replacing the clickies he summons =\

The caboose on this ugly little engine that can't is that the clickies being addressed here are either A) severely watered down lvl 30-40 versions of spells that are, on the whole, insignificant, or B) have a long enough cool-down to make them, on the whole, insignificant, or C) have a long enough cast time to make them, on the whole, insignificant.

(insignificant in relation to "replacing" an actual class, that is. clickies are clutch when abused properly, but nobody's gonna say "hey don't bring tarutao, everyone has taesh ears and sraen banners")
 
Starting this by saying I love you Magina.

Magina said:
Summon mod rod is replaced by clickies? No. The clickies stack with them.
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No one claimed they replaced anything, they simply dimish the utiltiy of the original class, and in alot of case diminished utiltiy is incentive to bring a different class with less-diminished utilty.

1)No one is claiming a modrod-like clickie replaces the use for a modrod. We're simply saying that if modrod clickie gave you 1 mana, and modrod itself gave you 1 mana, assuming these are the only two items that can give you mana, the value of the mage's modrod is 1 of a total 2 possible mana points per x number of time units (reuse).
2)It's often easier to use a ganzsese ring in Emberflow rather than educating a mage on how the zone works and bringing, most people suffer the resistances/DS damage lost.

Earring of bound heavens is basically a way for 2-3 people (depending on who has it) to take down a raid mob their raid is wiping on, sometimes even at 3-6%. How does that not seem game breaking? We gave wizards lifefire and necro's lifeburn to give them this. You give sustained dps a burst dps clickie and you diminish the utility of a Burst dps class in alot of cases.
 
Zaela said:
I don't actually know what you mean with this one. It's a small group heal, and it's only usable by healers. In fact, it seems to fit the paradigm you are suggesting clickies should conform to absolutely perfectly. In a previous post you seemed to think it was something to do with mana regen??? I'm not sure if you are on the up and up in this case.
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Chalking this one up as my ignorance, after checking parser (never actually had a pair fo these) i was on the wrong page as to what exactly these did, I would like to go ahead and apologize, this is a perfect clickie in my book.
 
Arlain said:
Swiss army knives have a reusable tooth pick on them. This is negatively impacting the toothpick market.
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Honestly, I know what you're getting at, but it's not the clickies that shave class numbers in groups or on raids. It's buff durations/bots, SB Perma buffs, and optimal and/or min/max class stacking. Nobody in their right mind would say "Not taking a mage to ember, got me a ganzese ring." It's going to be "Don't need rains to kill this mob/mages suck on this encounter, load up relic DS and SB it."

You're at the right door, just got the wrong key sir!

Also the clickie on Mourning of Purity is also on the DotO belt (all/all ca-ching!) funfact!
 
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How does someone else having access to a self-only buff diminish your class in any way shape or form?

Most clickies, especially the lev clickies, were always appreciated by the casters on our raids b/c it meant they didn't have to waste mana/spell gems/precious moments on casting the buffs.
 
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Aflop said:
Another fine example - It takes a wiz 12 secs to load and cast Okels levity, or do I just use a melee DPS and insta click boots of the shifting currents http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Boots_of_The_Shifting_Currents ? This is again an INT caster spell that has handed down to a melee class with a considerable advantage
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Incorrect, self buffs do not diminish utiltiy to others, only to self.

Casting time on o'keils levity for a wizard is irrelevant, it's a self buff, that only affects your patience.

The o'keils boots and back slots that are avaible are prime examples of items that diminish utility, but only for the same reasons other levi clickes -frozen wing: sorcs lab- etc etc also diminish levi utility. The fact that a tank can get okeils boots from PoAir should only be reconsidered if you reconsider ALL levi clickies, in which case they should not be excluded. I would even support removal of levi from these and just make them minor DS + fire SV, would make them more usable since alot of important zones don't allow levi.
 
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(Most of You) seem to be missing the point here.

ALL of the clickies are duplicating characteristics of the casting classes. Some of them entirely (lev invis etc) and some to a diminished extent(nukes DS etc). So if it is fine for melee and tanks to obtain caster characteristics (even to a reduced extent) then in the interest of balance where are the FD/Invul Stance/Backstab/Large AC clickies that the casters would love to have. Just for say 5 mins every hour so that they could not be said to be undermining those classes.

Absurd you say.
I could not agree with you more.
 
I mostly feel that all clickie buffs should be self only, including levitate and these illusion and illusionAC clickies. Invis clickies don't appear to be game breaking as invis is available for such a broad range of classes in 2 different archetypes such clickies as long as they are self only do nothing but decrease downtime, which i approve of.

Levitate has become so easily found we had to start disabling levi in more zones because everyone had it, and everyone abused it (good example being BQ where levi was used to skip up at the ent) which in my eyes seems to support the notion that these buffs with specific advantages within the client should not be available in clickie form for classes who don't already have the spell.

I would like to see clickies being developed to be used as an extra spell slot by having top line spells for specific classes that are clickable. Something like Light of Eternity on Thaz Cleric bp saving a spell slot, as most clerics who get thaz essences already have ALL relics this wouldn't be too ubsurd.

A good example would be the invoker's robe of power, the cmal3 wizzy robe. It has a clickie DD on it on only slightly less in dmg than 65 5 mana nukes, however it's a clickable requiring no spell slot, and enables a wizard to do -some- dps while still having DF (recently after death).

These are ways of adding usefullness to a class and giving them alternative methods of doing something without enabling any class to do anything if they ivnest x amount of time into acquiring the item/tome or w/e.

Just think that would be nice.
 
Im pretty sure most classes get their own levi/eb/invis/root. The only thing these clickies do is provide it to melee for the most part which is fair.

Also, most nuke/dot clickies are worse dps than just meleeing for hybrids and melee unless they are on a long cd. So basically they are a pull tool.

Also, to correct this "problem", I suggest we delete alchemy as is completely replaces the need to ever have all caster classes be sides rangers for an atk buff. Hp, haste, regen, mana regen, stats, heals, mana clickies, resists, ds, invis, gate, and ac. I havent grouped or raided with a healer in 4 years thanks to healing pots.
 
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This thread is stupid why isn't it locked yet. I am glad there are no ranger buff clickies.

TAO EDIT: This post was awarded a 1 day forum suspension
 
Levitate clickies - For any raid content where you need a levitate, you cast DMF because it saves time (the most important aspect of successful raiding).. for any 6 man/exp that you need levitate for, what if you don't have someone that can levitate? Then you can't do it/risk falling through the world/blah blah. This seems like a very minimalistic complaint for something that is a huge boon to convenience and overall a better online experience.

Invisibility clickies - I do not understand your gripe here, 2/3 of classes get their own form of invisibility.. the only classes that do not are Warriors/Monks/Paladins(IvU). No one is going to take any of these classes because of their invis clicky they are going to bring them for the very specific role that they fulfill.

Root/snare clickies - In the case of the boots from Undercaverns that were referenced, that seems more like a problem with the item itself being usable from level 1.. also iirc this root has a Very Short duration and will break if you even look at the mob the wrong way..

I am not going to bother and continue because these examples being brought up are completely absurd. Honestly I do not understand this thread one bit.. clickies provide such a minimal benefit that in no way do they replace or dilute the capabilities of other classes. If anything it adds flavor to a game that definitely needs it. A lot of recent clickies/effects are honestly refreshing because they are NEW concepts and effects instead of the same re-hashed stuff that you see up to tier 9/10..

This game is heading in the direction of exploring frontiers that were not explored before as far as content/item design and you are complaining about this? I don't look at SoD as EQ Classic.. I see it as a game in its own right and if you see it otherwise then maybe this isn't the game for you..
 
Most of these things that supposedly diminish the role of a caster I would think would really hurt the caster the most (if not a whole raid or group) if the clickies were eliminated. Right now most of any given raid can invis up and move when the situation warrants. If you guys have your way all you're doing is adding time where said casters have to individually cast on each person. No offense to anyone on that side of the view, but as with many threads in the suggestion area it just seems to be another way to make things a pain in the ass.

Although I personally like things the way they are for the most part, as Dimmi and maybe Zaela (can't remember) mentioned the problems you guys are talking about if they do actually exist are cause by completely different things. I also personally think a lot of the perceived problems are just that, perception. Most of the supposedly diminished classes are just fine. Folks have just been trained to think they have better options. Find a way to fix that instead imo.
 
Zaela, you forgot about the shared mind clicky on the belt from CoD or whereever its from. This is gamebreaking.
 
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