Change in Rules addressing guild flags

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Melodico

Melodico

Dalayan Elder
As an overall policy, guilds that have not successfully completed flags should not be allowed access to content. In theory, this is currently in place. However when considering Tur`ruj, spires, yclist flags, (more as well) this doesn't quite work out.

When a guild that has successfully killed prime is mid clear in spires, why are we seeing pony express track bots logging in? This guild has not done prime itself, nor do they actively raid yclist. At what point is allowing them access due to chars (given to their guild) having the flags appropriate? Its not. Plain and simple.

Ringer toons given to guilds should not allow them access to high end fats. The staff has already expressed their opinion on "ringers" and i feel this is along the same mentality. SB isn't trying to move into tur'ruj and do the easy encounters, despite having access to flagged toons. Nor should mid-tiered guilds be given access to spires.

My proposition is that a change be made to these flagged zones that only require one char to grant access, so that it performs a check requiring atleast multiple characters present to be flagged. Some more elaborate idea might work better, but the jist of the idea is there.

All im asking is that you earn what you get. My intent is not to bash anyone, nor to cause drama. Simply to earn what you get.

-Pazms
 
Melodico said:
My proposition is that a change be made to these flagged zones that only require one char to grant access, so that it performs a check requiring atleast multiple characters present to be flagged. Some more elaborate idea might work better, but the jist of the idea is there.
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Regardless of anything else I'm not sure how you would expect an automated check for this kind of thing to work. How many flagged ringers should it take to not count as a ringer-ed raid? 3? 6?

There isn't really any meaningful way to check if a character is a ringer or not. Complex webs of info-sharing and other inherent problems would make IP checks far too messy to work with.

Changing how the flags are obtained would be the only feasible way to change anything, but it's way too late for that imo. Beside, if there were mass flags on killing something or some such that would be just as open to ringering anyway.

Major flagged content progression might have worked back when OP and IP were it and there were only two eternally feuding raid guilds capable of doing either, but these days barriers like that are just a headache that doesn't really add anything to the game. It's not like most raiders are gonna care about a crappy story if we force-feed it to them in a big required flagging quest. Ikisith zones should just lose their flag requirements altogether and let everyone who can do them compete for them freely. Farming flags is just not fun, and neither is getting upset whenever someone stops playing and gives their character to a lower guild or keeps playing in spite of their guild disappearing.
 
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I know people would hate this idea, but make the highest tier zone need a per character item/key to get in that is stupid hard and sucks to camp. Remember old school vex thal? Yeah.

Then when new stuff is released you can remove the resitrictions on those zones and make the top stuff harder to break into.
 
I quite like how ToT flagging works. I forgot if it's 10 or 12 flags required for 18-man raid.
 
tinkaa said:
I quite like how ToT flagging works. I forgot if it's 10 or 12 flags required for 18-man raid.
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I would of liked tot flagging if that npc actually functioned half the time. He however does not :dumbsad:
 
I like the current system (ignoring sanctum), if a guild is capable of killing mobs they should be allowed to kill mobs. A ringer or two isnt suddenly going to let a mid-tier guild kill spires.
 
*PLAYER HAT ON*

I couldn't disagree more with Solosolki, wich is about normal. In fact, I like the flagging requirements for sanctum, and wished more zones worked like that.


*PLAYER HAT OFF*
 
Your player character happens to be in a position where you can easily cockblock other guilds out of the content your guild has been back-gearing on for over a year now...

Just saying... =p

I'd love to see more pressure on turuj and sanctum, maybe prompting exo to progress!
 
I'm all for requiring flagging, but I simply don't understand the logic of making the flagging mob rare. Perhaps I just don't understand the digital masochism behind needing to out-camp the other guild. The fact that someone else has no life/job and kills the snot out of some key mob (even if they don't need anything from it!) shouldn't detract from other's ability to play. Don't forget, once they get into the zone, they still have to kill something to get loot!
 
This is an interesting thread in the "looking back at SoD history" sense.

One year ago, the overwhelming opinion was the opposite of what Melodico has expressed in the OP. Backfarming flags and killflags and trying to confirm participation of raid kills of mobs from before those things were tracked was a huge headache, and questions of what restrictions should and should not apply to guild raids and/or pickup raids were rampant and led to heated debates that frequently turned ugly (don't let this become one of those).

Two years ago, guild raids and pickup raids were viewed as separate entities, and the pre-requisite content requirements for each were different. Guild raids could do only content that their guild had done the pre-requisite content for "as a guild". Pickup raids could do content that 2/3 of the raid had done the pre-requisite content for in any raid. This had its own set of problems that included but were not limited to: (1) verifying pre-requisite content quotas for pickup raids by raid leaders (2) players getting guild tags and jumping straight into content multiple zones/flags beyond what they had done themselves (3) new guilds forming and consisting of enough players that they'd be able to do content as a pickup raid that they could not do as a guild raid. These are all problems that had to be addressed alongside the growing angst from sentiments that are more in line with those expressed by Silosobi.

About a year ago, the 2/3 rule was the focus of ire for the angst I just mentioned. Recognizing the shift in the raiding paradigm of the SoD community that is described in the thread that cian2 linked and is stickied in this form, the 2/3 rule was removed and replaced with the temporary "unPuGable zone" rule until a proper adjustment to raid policies was finalized. This period sucked (speaking both as a player and the staff member that made that awful but temporary rule). During this time, though, the staff looked at raids a bit more closely to see what raids were composed of people that were "in the guild raiding", what raids were raids consisting of multiple guilds working together, what raids were mostly one guild with a few randoms joining them, what raids were mostly one guild with friends from other guilds joining them for social purposes, what raids were mostly random pickup raids, and what raids were pickup raids that were created by way-over-tier characters and a couple ringers getting a few random people to scoop rots with one desired item claimed for the raid leader. After seeing what raids were happening, the staff decided that the amount those raids that were somewhere between "guild raid" and "pickup raid" were way too high for a minor adjustment of raid policies of pre-requisite content to suffice.

This leads us to the stickied thread cian2 linked: the "Raid Paradigm Changes" thread from this January. The reasoning is spelled out in that thread pretty well, so I won't rehash it. Ultimately, the combination of what kinds of raids were actually raiding content, the general sentiment of the playerbase against pre-requisite content, and the general sentiments of the Dev Team towards pre-requisite content led to the situation we have today where there is no distinction between guild raids and pickup raids and that all content is gated or not gated on a case-by-case basis that is subject to change.

Where does this leave people who are dissatisfied with the current situation? They're really have 2 options: (1) suggest specific changes to the pre-requisite content requirements for specific pieces of content (2) suggest a fully-formed and fully-expressed and fully-detailed and fully-explained sweeping change to raid policies that has the attention and time and thought put into it and its ramifications that rivals that which the staff put into the current policy. If someone elects to attempt option (2), then they need to consider also the issues that existed in 2011 with the old policy and could otherwise return and in full force of hardcore players that would abuse the hell out of the <Exodus> and <Goon Squad> and <Fair-Weather Friends> guild tags to do all of the things that I've heard complaints about in the last month. It's a daunting task, but as with all of my major projects on SoD (fletching revamp, this policy we're talking about now, that floundering baking revamp that's stuck at the point of me re-designing fishing tables) if you can improve on it, I'll be thrilled and proud to have community-generated content and ideas replace my own.

---

tl;dr - History lesson that means "I don't want to change it back".
 
Gund said:
I'm all for requiring flagging, but I simply don't understand the logic of making the flagging mob rare. Perhaps I just don't understand the digital masochism behind needing to out-camp the other guild. The fact that someone else has no life/job and kills the snot out of some key mob (even if they don't need anything from it!) shouldn't detract from other's ability to play. Don't forget, once they get into the zone, they still have to kill something to get loot!
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This is pretty accurate. Everything about SoD raiding is a marathon. He who lasts the longest usually ends up winning and looting and laughing. Over time, for players who have been on the same game for multiple years and have done basically everything available outside of raiding, being logged on for 72 hours straight to camp key mob x isn't possible or fun anymore. This just leads to player atrophy when they can't experience the fun content they are capable of beating.

I think being 'good' at a game or having skill that leads you to better wins, loot, and smiles should be distinguished from marathon camping a key mob that hinders you and your 17 e-friends (which have all put in obscene amounts of /p) from having a good time. Camping that mob takes no skill, the real challenge should be killing the boss that actually drops gear and progresses your crew!
 
*PLAYER HAT ON*
I recognize that this is a situation where the determining factor is design intent of the dev team, and I'm stating nothing more than my personal opinions with regards to specific pre-requisite content requirement changes.


Since we are no longer tracking progress by guild and instead by player, I'd like to lobby that we complete the change by implementing the following checks:
  • ValorB needs you to have killflag from each trial/hero shrine OR Amulet of the Stronghold either in physical form or keyringed.
  • The Orb you click to enter Inner Prison transports individuals only, and only if you have Taeshlin the Guardian killflag OR Scale of Taeshlin either in physical form or keyringed.
  • Spires can only be entered if you have Prime Enchanter killflag OR Faded Janitorial Identification Scroll OR Gemstone of the 4th Seeker+.
  • Tur'ruj can only be entered if you have Saitha's Stash killflag (since Saitha runs away and never dies...) OR Gemstone of the 3rd Seeker+.
  • Abyss needs 1 key per person.

*PLAYER HAT OFF*
 
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Nwaij said:
*PLAYER HAT ON*
I recognize that this is a situation where the determining factor is design intent of the dev team, and I'm stating nothing more than my personal opinions with regards to specific pre-requisite content requirement changes.


Since we are no longer tracking progress by guild and instead by player, I'd like to lobby that we complete the change by implementing the following checks:
  • ValorB needs you to have killflag from each trial/hero shrine OR Amulet of the Stronghold either in physical form or keyringed.
  • The Orb you click to enter Inner Prison transports individuals only, and only if you have Taeshlin the Guardian killflag OR Scale of Taeshlin either in physical form or keyringed.
  • Spires can only be entered if you have Prime Enchanter killflag OR Faded Janitorial Identification Scroll OR Gemstone of the 4th Seeker+.
  • Tur'ruj can only be entered if you have Saitha's Stash killflag (since Saitha runs away and never dies...) OR Gemstone of the 3rd Seeker+.
  • Abyss needs 1 key per person.

*PLAYER HAT OFF*
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Spires can only be entered if you have Prime Enchanter killflag OR Faded Janitorial Identification Scroll OR Gemstone of the 4th Seeker+. Allow 3 people out of 18 to get into the zone without flag, Same with IS and Tur ruj, You will always have Backgearing and it sux not being able to backgear a new toon cause u need to reflag it but the flagging mob is always down it slows the progression of guild... this also allows alts for box'd raids
 
Requiring full flags on every character is miserable. I have them myself, but if a friend joins the guild, they should be able to hang out and raid irregardless of whether or not they have been on the server for years following the 'standard' progression path.
 
Silosobi said:
irregardless
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You're doing it wrong.

I know this server is generally againsted 'instanced' encounters (other than say, Tmaps,) but why not apply that as a * version for mobs that are required for flagging/keying? I'm pretty sure this has been brought up before, but I never saw a real response as to why not.
 
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