Bracelet of Cunning Manipulation Proc Question

DodoBot

DodoBot

Dalayan Elder
I realize that this is a few years post-nerf, but I am curious as to why the proc on the enchanter class bracer was changed from Tashanian (-41 MR) to Tashani (-22 MR). I presume this was because Tashanian was seen as too powerful, but I don't ever recall there having been a discussion about this particular bracer proc. Could anyone who was in on the process chime in as to why this change was made?
 
DodoBot said:
I realize that this is a few years post-nerf, but I am curious as to why the proc on the enchanter class bracer was changed from Tashanian (-41 MR) to Tashani (-22 MR). I presume this was because Tashanian was seen as too powerful, but I don't ever recall there having been a discussion about this particular bracer proc. Could anyone who was in on the process chime in as to why this change was made?
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Even the Dev who made the item (Zaela) said the change was dumb because casting tash is just a thoughtless blip. Woldo or Slaariel (not sure who) didn't like the proc being the best form of tash, as then you had to make another bracer with the identical proc or it wouldnt be worn. Now the issue is you get to make a proc with Tashania instead.
 
Meh, that's a shame. Perhaps this could be revisited in the future when things calm down. (Though I think an adjustment would be pretty simple to make if one could be agreed upon quickly and quietly)
 
Were it any other class, I would agree Tashanian would be too much. If it were a clicky I would again maybe agree. But for enchanters as a combat proc I guess I fail to see the problem requiring the lower tash. Someone remind me after 2.5 and I will ask the powers-that-be, because I agree, this doesn't make a lot of sense.
 
from the 2013 edition of this thread:
Zaela said:
Would like to chime in to say that the above spell slot stuff was what the proc was intended for in the first place.

Furthermore, it's worth noting that Tashanian 1) is unresistable, 2) casts quite fast, and 3) costs basically no mana for someone high enough tier to get this item. All this makes tash the most utterly perfunctory spell in the game, in my opinion. You always want it, but you know it's always going to land, and actually casting it is a completely brainless blip. If anything, having it as a proc adds a level of decision-making to it, as now you have to decide on a spell to pair it up with, which will ultimately increase the amount of initial aggro you'll get from using it.

I'm also curious what the reasoning for the change was. Would also support making it a clicky if that is more palatable.
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Waldoff said:
Whether or not tash is a stupid spell can be argued, but making it a proc on a bracer at 100% cast makes no bracer an upgrade to that bracer without the exact same proc. It saves crucial start fight time, a spell gem (which as you said is huge), and basically makes every spell you cast less resistable, and does the same for the raid. I think if we have learned anything recently it is that things that are "utterly perfunctory" can not be fixed with items without running into thaz syndrome. And in this case it is thaz syndrome with a twist - this bracer was randomly made 100% drop rate off of a singular mob, meaning every fashionable enchanter alt in town was able to get one before it was taken back to a reasonable, less assured, drop.

Who would give up that proc for 100 more mana? 200? 300? 500? 1000? What bracer without that proc would be worth equipping over it? Even if a bracer had 1500 more hp and mana, you would still equip that bracer at the beginning of every fight if the fight had any sort of time/mez pressure.

If we want to talk about enchanter spell slots it is an entirely different conversation. If tash is really that much a waste of space, then perhaps it should be changed or removed completely. I am all for talking about spell slots if they really are the misery of enchanters everywhere - but an item is simply not the place to correct that problem given that items need to be upgradable. I am also sure that a lot of classes are enviable that there are so many extremely powerful enchanter spells that the biggest constraint on enchanter power is them not being able to fit them all on the bar.

Making the item a clicky would help make upgrades realistic - and is a change I might be open to, but would still make the bracer absolutely irreplaceable and nearly mandatory. A lesser evil to be sure, but still not something we want very often.

I thought the balance of "This is a really magic resist intensive fight - I should use real tash" versus "I need to save time, a lesser tash is worth the time/spells saves" struck a good balance.
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Helpful, thanks. I am going to invade Woldaff's IRL domain next week, and can ask about this. He may hit me, I don't know. No promises.

I would like to argue that a sudden Tash can also unexpectedly cause "bad agro things" to happen to the enchanter. In someways then, they need to think about the timing of this. Cast X spell too early, get the tash proc and pull agro, uh oh.
 
why not restore the proc and also make it clickable from inv this makes the slot replaceable and just adds one more progression clickie to nab while progressing
 
I don't think making it a clicky is realistic. One of the drawbacks to the admittedly powerful proc is that it is basically uncontrollable added agro. When we provide a significant effect, we try to temper it with at least some sort of downside, and IMO that is this bracer's downside.
 
OK, had dinner with Woldaff last night and this came up. I broke his nose, he broke my jaw. So it was civil discourse.

Basically the concern is making it a 100% proc effectively frees up a enchanter spell slot. That does impact balance to some degree. Now obviously this calculation may change soon with the availability of 2 extra spell slots at some point, but let's work with what we have now.

The other concern is - what would you ever replace this bracer with? We're not super keen on creating items that you can never replace.

These are open questions, I did not get a "no." :) What we kind of left the discussion at is maybe making it a 75% or 80% proc so if there were cases where tash was critical, you'd be inclined to still load up a slot with it. But for mundane things, 75% would probably be fine.

Thoughts? Let's make this a feedback thing, not a war. :) If we can come to a reasonable middle ground, I think we can get the bigger tash put back.
 
A few things you could consider:

Edit: First, I'm no enchanter, but I would assume that a 75-80% proc rate would make this item way waaaaay less desirable. It's the cutting edge content that tash is going to be most important for, and so is the extra spell slot. Making this bracer less desirable to use on cutting edge content due to a non-100% proc rate is kind of self defeating, IMO because that's where both of its features (spell slot, tash) are going to make the difference.

-Lower the stats dramatically on the bracer: The bracer is basically +1 spell slot, and I don't know many players that wouldn't equip an item if it was worded as +1 spell slot even if it had low stats otherwise.

-Add a large amount of +aggression to the bracer and enjoy the comical results! Seriously though, I don't know really know the math behind aggression or the actual effect it really has in combat. This could make Mr Enchanter think twice and / or need to swap the bracer on and off for tash. Would also make it a "must have" but not a "cannot replace" type of thing since it's not always going to be worn.

-Make Nightmarr a worn effect on it. Because why not. Make it contagious too. Because that'd be amazing.
 
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Taryth said:
The other concern is - what would you ever replace this bracer with? We're not super keen on creating items that you can never replace.
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Just to address this point specifically:

Maybe it's against your design philosophies(?) but there are not many items in this game with large drawbacks worked into them to balance the benefits.

For instance, this bracer could come with some big downsides: +aggression, -HP, -Mana, a worn tash effect on the enchanter, etc.

Future tiers of enchanter bracers (t12, t13, t14, etc) could offer tash as a proc, but with less downsides. You could implement multiple tiers of bracers using this design. This way, you're introducing a great effect on an item, but at a cost. By the time you introduce new enchanter bracers at tier 15-16 (because that's your hold up - not being able to replace this bracer) you'd be so out of the ballpark on the original bracer stat-wise, it would be easy to design something new.

Something to think about maybe? Maybe not. I'm at work and distracted.
 
Give enchanters some quest line like mask of talyan/ spirit of swarm. Give them a stance called advanced hand waggling and make it automatically cast tash prior to any spell.

We did it.


Also the whole "Create items that can't be replaced" thing is kind of silly since tons of those exist already.


Also see the whole thread where people begged for aoe heal procs to just become a standard healer mechanic instead of looking at the future of priest weapons being shit because they don't proc and heal.
 
Imo just leave it how it is to leave a reasonable upgrade path later. It's still pretty dang useful as is.

Maybe it's my lack of knowledge of resist debuffs, but I don't think -19MR is going to make a big difference for 90% of the fights. For the few fights it matters, you can mem an extra spell.

From a shaman's perspective in live, you NEEDED the best malo and tash to be able to land slow on really hard mobs. In Sod, the mob resists don't seem to be coded so drastically that you need the best debuffs. If archaic slow (-100 MR check) doesn't land after 2 attempts, the mob is probably resistant enough (at least during that phase) that an extra -19MR won't do anything.

I don't know if the -19MR makes a big difference for other classes? Maybe -19MR makes a bigger difference for lower tiers but by the time you get this bracer you're far past lower tiers.
 
Pecannius said:
Imo just leave it how it is to leave a reasonable upgrade path later. It's still pretty dang useful as is.

Maybe it's my lack of knowledge of resist debuffs, but I don't think -19MR is going to make a big difference for 90% of the fights. For the few fights it matters, you can mem an extra spell.

From a shaman's perspective in live, you NEEDED the best malo and tash to be able to land slow on really hard mobs. In Sod, the mob resists don't seem to be coded so drastically that you need the best debuffs. If archaic slow (-100 MR check) doesn't land after 2 attempts, the mob is probably resistant enough (at least during that phase) that an extra -19MR won't do anything.

I don't know if the -19MR makes a big difference for other classes? Maybe -19MR makes a bigger difference for lower tiers but by the time you get this bracer you're far past lower tiers.
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Enchanters never have enough spell gems, and having to mem a second tash just isn't going to happen by the time you get this bracer. Effectively, it just means that once you get this bracer, you're going to downgrade your tash in exchange for a spell gem, which, in my mind is a poor trade off considering the no-drawback utility on all of the other class bracers. Please revert to the old, proper tash form. Compared to some of the other class bracers procs, it's odd that this was even singled out to be nerfed in the first place!
 
DodoBot said:
Enchanters never have enough spell gems, and having to mem a second tash just isn't going to happen by the time you get this bracer.
Pecannius said:
I don't think -19MR is going to make a big difference for 90% of the fights. For the few fights it matters, you can mem an extra spell.
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I think it would be pretty rare (can't think of any instances) where it would be worth it, but you still have the option to change spells during a fight (except for a few fights you can't).

DodoBot said:
Effectively, it just means that once you get this bracer, you're going to downgrade your tash in exchange for a spell gem, which, in my mind is a poor trade off considering the no-drawback utility on all of the other class bracers
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Fair enough point. But I'd personally say it's worth it. Especially if you factor in not only the spell gem you're saving, but also the time saved by being able to effectively cast 2 spells at once (or 1.5 spells, depending if you only count the lower tash as half a spell). Also, for most chanter detrimental spells the tash that lands right before is going to benefit the spell you're casting (slow, debuffs, mez).
 
So, counter-argument to this.

Enchanters never have enough spell gems, and having to mem a second tash just isn't going to happen by the time you get this bracer.
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Yes, but managing spell gems is part of being an enchanter TBH. Also, let me play devil's advocate, why should enchanters effectively get 9 spell slots? :)

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to play this out.
 
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The thing is, let's not make the problem worse. Mistakes in the past probably should be avoided in the future.
 
I don't think the majority of the player base considers items like those or this or any other crazy shit (ashpyre, etc all other valuable clickies) to be a mistake. If the devs do then there are quite a lot of items to be purged.

I honestly want to know what spell enchanters even want to put on their bar that bad that they freak out over that spell slot. The wrist itself isn't even the issue.
 
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