beefing up the tanks

yeah shroud of pain worked awsome, was not aware that debuffs did such huge agro, infact had no problem with shammy landing slows anymore, it is kinda heavy on the mana i did got lots of resists, being my cha 10aunbuffed had it buffed to 132, and having 1699 mana, but was hunting in DN i supposed that that zone the mobs are resistand to shadow spell line. Thansk for the recomendation. However the monk continued to grab agro at about <50% mob's health, but was really happy that the shammy could slow right away, I was on pulls so monk tanking didnt bother me at all since i could chain pulls from it.

However this post is not about tanks lacking agro, just that that issue came out and smacked this thread hard, This forum is about tanks needing new upgrades on their gear so they can perform their duties as a tank efficiently lvls 55 and under, that way they dont get replaced by monks/rangers or just abotu any other class.
 
Sounds like the problem of the average mid level war items being tailored and leather wearable could be solved by adding the smithing tradeskill...
 
Laksha, try adding in another debuff around, to throw out some random numbers, 70% and 50%. Fiddle around with it a little bit, you'll find something that works. Use the lowest mana cost debuffs you can--it's the aggro that really matters, not the effect on the spell. Monks dish out a lot of DPS, so they're most definitely going to be gaining aggro on you over the course of the fight if you're just meleeing.
 
okey going to bring back to life a post that is almost dead. Last night Nov 9th, my guild group picked up a raid with Venerate, they had 3 groups raiding Dreadfang spire. and i witnes something that i feel like sharing. when they raided the 5th floor boss ( i forgot his name, was something the reborn) my brother's 57 monk was out tanking a 65 shadow knight and a 65 warrior. I parse the fight and noticed that he was able to hold the boss for much longer than their main tanks(the main tanks on a CH cleric rotation, I was not able to even land my druid's patch heal they went down way to fast, however on my brother i was able to land the heal right after he decided to FD when he was at 30% life and was not on any CH chain and was able to hold the mob for a good time). My brother's monk is not twinked, hence thats his main character and you can look him up. The point here is that people saying that monks cannot tank past lvl 55 has proven false. I belive he had more AC than their main tanks but less HP, monks having high AC+block+high evasion no other tank can compete to that. I can truly say a 57 monk can outtank 65 tanks with about same gear and that is sad.

to end this:
What I'm trying to get across is that tanks need beefing up baddly so that they dont get replace by DPS/pullers.

What I'm NOT trying to say is nerf down al other melee classes, including monks, using monk for example because my RL brother plays one and I have been able to use him to test this points i'm bringing.

What I suggest is:
1. More plate gear for tanks with effects that will enhance their ability to do their job.

2. beef up the stats on armor that is already out there for tank classes.

3. Beef up tanks with priority on warriors, hence better HP/AC for them and agro increment effects untill they can get better at 65 in progression. SK/Pal should come second on HP and they dont need so much agro items but they need more mana regen items.

4. give Pal/SK ac from the shield back, like is on life, and make it 1ac=1 skill on block(as compares to 1ac=2 skill), that way that chunk of AC still hold true, hence a pal/sk will need a 100ac shield to even compare to monk's block ability but not having that 100 AC dedicated to armor it just plains kills the bonus of not having 2 weapons or giving away the chance to have 2handers.


The reason why i bitch about this so much is because I'm a hard core tank class and I love to play my class, and I have seen my class being replace and not being able to hold their title as they are ment to be, and hurts me and hurts me more playing something I dont like to play when change is possible.

thanks for all who made thier coments here, lots of good points were made, and hope that some GM-admins picks this up and does something about it.
 
I understand from what you said that when your raid wiped, you brother got to survive while sk's/warriors didn't. It sounds just like bad luck.

You are unlucky and your MT dies. When he dies, there is chaos, and unless stated before, there is no Secondary Tank, so probably, noone was looking for anyone's health. So other warriors can't FD, thus they die. SK's may try to hold the aggro to try to save the raid, but they end up dying because there is chaos or their FD is resisted.

Finally, your brother is lucky and evades a couple attacks, has time to hit one key and F'sD, while you, his brother, have been looking for his health as every good brother would. So you heal him in between all the chaos.


Your case doesn't look to point anything to me, sorry.
 
Laksha said:
The point here is that people saying that monks cannot tank past lvl 55 has proven false.
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It's all a lie. Monks can't tank at all... It's like trying to stop a sword with a wet paper bag. :(
 
yes it does makes a very obious point, many times I have had my brother tanking raid mobs and he has done fine(and frankly ALOT better than tank classes), however i never tested him against lvl 65s. BTW this raid I'm talking about wiped 2 times on the same mobs using the 65 SK for pulls and 65 warrior to tank, a very commonly use strategy. I can confirm and i have my whole group as witness as well as the 3 groups from that guild that both their tanks went down WAY too fast the two attempts. My brother didnt tanked the first attepmt because when i saw the 2 tanks drops so fast my druid evac the group, second attemt my brother hold the mob for a bit untill he decided to FD, you may call it lucky, but I also remember my brother tanking Lord commander ragarati at lvl 52, a mob that is lvl 55 and quads for almost the 400s high 350s and he did ALOT better than tanks as I have witnesses for that as well I'm not lying and I have proof of this. For your info we did had a secondary tank and they were on a 3 cleric CH rotation. What you may say is that the warrior and the SK had bad gear, but i dont think they were that bad, just that that gear is hard to come by and that gear for tanks is really uncomparable to others a thing I'm trying to get across. However the monk was about same gear as those two, but both the SK and the warrior were not able to handle it and died in a blink of an eye at lvl 65 while my brother was able to handle it at 57 and I'm sure if he had the CH chain assigned to him we could have had done it. and If it is a case that he was able to block a couple of hits and got lucky, luck does not repeat, and frankly that has been happening very often as I have tested his tanking abilities to other tanks, I tested/parsed his tanking to warriors/SKs...and frankly does better...do I need to test him with paladins too? i have a good amount of pallys I know but not sure if I want to waste my time I'm sure I know what the result will be. And you can't call me a lyer, I have the oportunity to test both classes, do you? but should we even get this far, I mean the moment that a monk at lvl 57 can last longer than a warrior without heals on a raid mob should something in your head trigger saying that there is something wrong with this picture?
 
Last night I spent a while in an exp group with a 64 SK and found it a rather sobering experience. He was pulling. Any time he didn't FD it took me some time to get aggro, after just his initial pulling spell. Generally if I was in agressive stance I would get aggro sometime around the second taunt, which occurred after both a blind and a a Cease. The taunts did nothing if the mobs were higher than very, very low dblue. They might have worked one time in 15 or 20.

It's not that Paladins are bad at holding aggro. We do great most of the time in xp groups and whatnot. It's really more like class envy. SKs are much, much, much better at holding aggro. Wanna keep the mob off the shaman? No prob, he can slow before the mob even gets to the camp when an SK is pulling. Want to break a mez without waiting 30 seconds for a paladin to chain blind + stun? Call the SK, he'll get it in one or two casts with no uncertainty.




My name is Hasritt, and I have a problem. I'm... I'm envious.
 
Hasrett the issue about paladins not holding agro is being looked at as we speak, there is a topic about this, I'm hoping that they fix them since they were my fav class on live. However this is not just about paladins(or agro for that matter), more as all tank classes , I'm speaking in behalf of warriors, SK's and paladins as well. as I'm trying to demostrate a warrior can kill a lvl 25 mob to get a 30 ac/30 hp BP and in order for him/her to upgrade that gear has to wait another 45 lvls+ to get better, or the fact that there is a lack of plate gear in the server, and effects on armor that will make those 3 tank classes efficient. To this point all i got was like at lvl 65 it gets better, and sure i have seen huge lvl 65 tanks with AWSOME gear, but I also seen the not so strong raiding guild their lvl 65 tanks really lack it. Tanks should not need raid obtainable gear to do their job right, that raid gear I feel should be a bonus, and to do better on the uber bosses. The mob I compared last night was hitting for the 700's and to me at lvl 65 that is a weak raid mob.
 
It's true, SK's are pretty good with aggro. No, better than pretty good.
I haven't seen a similarly geared monk tank as well as my SK at a similar level, though...
Be happy to log on for a parse session, my SK is not all that well geared, and if he is better geared than the monk, he can always take some gear off till they are equal.
 
Going to have to whole heartedly disagree with you Laksha. I know the mob you're talking about; Nyjak the Risen or something like that. He hits hard. Your monk got lucky and missed a few blows, but that's the strong point for monks. One bad round and he'd be a messy red streak on the ground. Tanks have mitigation over monks, if you compare the two together monks take slightly more damage than tanks and the damage they recieve is a lot more random. Tanks taking hits are a lot more predictable which is why they work better. That's not to say monks can't tank, just that tanks will always be better.


Edited for spelling
 
diolas said:
Going to have to whole heartedly disagree with you Laksha. I know the mob you're talking about; Nyjak the Risen or something like that. He hits hard. Your monk got lucky and missed a few blows, but that's the strong point for monks. One bad round and he'd be a messy red streak on the ground. Takes have mitigation over monks, if you compare the two together monks take slightly more damage than tanks and the damage they recieve is a lot more random. Tanks taking hits are a lot more predictable which is why they work better. That's not to say monks can't tank, just that tanks will always be better.
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Predictable damage mitigation is indeed the key to tanking. Being able to luckily dodge a few hits is all well and good, but damage spikes make healing chains cry. Good point, diolas.
 
:? My opinion on some diffrent points comming up in this post.

1 SK vs Pal agro:
SKs are made to make hate. Ofcourse they are way better then anyone. If you cant get agro off his pull spell tell him not to use that spell or tell him to fd or let him tank. Paladins are tanks with the ability to avoid death on their own in dire situations. Their agro is very good infact I bet if Aratar and my Warior would fight for agro id loose. If the paladin looses agro he isnt trying hard enough or someone doesnt know how to play his class or a wizard gets an ultimate blast or primal.

2 Monks vs Plate.
I would not want a monk as tank on our raids unless it would be for fun reasons or the fight is a pushover anyway. I am sure that a decently AA'ed Plate class would out tank any monk of the same lvl/aa. Sure monks can evade and all but if monks are unlucky everyone would be death if a Warrior is unlucky he still has his HP working for him.

3 Jesbarn tanking adept.
This guy basicly stoped lvling and started AAing just to do addepts ofcourse he is better then a plate tank. he has some evasion AAs.
 
I see this is becoming a, you are wrong and you are right kinda topic and is getting nowhere.

a few points where made, lets discuss this
1) tanks get mitigation over monks, where does this mitigation comes from, it comes from having higher AC, my point is how can tank mitigation be higher than monks when they are wearing practicly the same armor? This is what this forum is about, not to compare them to monks, just that it happened so that i have been able to test side by side my SK with my brother's monk, so I used him as the example, and you can ask him how much better he can tank over any tank of his lvl, and he can prove it to you.

2) someone that does not know may say, well that monk stopped lvling and grinding AA's, well if this person knew better he will know that the adept was lvl 55, hence the monk was lvl 52 and could only do basic AA's, but what this person didnt knew was that the SK that tanked and died right away was also lvl 52 and was also lvling with the monk and had about the same amount of AA's and this SK was a twinked to top that up if that helps.

3) It was posted in the forums by the admins that Paladins had agro issues and they are working on it as is. So it is true they lacked agro so all you guys claiming that paladins don't have agro issues you are full of it.

Seems to me that most people that post here about how monks are not tanks and how they cannot aouttank plate classes are monk players who 1) never played a tank class or 2) fear that they wont be able to 2box for long because they will get nerfed like monks did on live or the distant 3) that with plate classes being beefed up their monks will nolonger be on top class, but seriously doubt this one is the case.

Mitigation comes from AC, and that is why I'm bringing this issue because between the lvls 30 to 60 there is NOTHING good for plate classes, stop trying to trash and say that I'm wrong because I can back up what I'm stating here. I'm not saying that monks are over powered, but that wars/pal/sk need beefing as the tittle of this topic says. I could give anotehr example, casters, look at al the gear they have trough their lvls, lots of mana conservation item, mana regen, and tons of focus effects items, where is the tank stuff?
 
There should be a better selection of plate gear for the mid levels. Blacksmithing would solve this problem.

That is all.
 
2 Monks vs Plate.
I would not want a monk as tank on our raids unless it would be for fun reasons or the fight is a pushover anyway. I am sure that a decently AA'ed Plate class would out tank any monk of the same lvl/aa. Sure monks can evade and all but if monks are unlucky everyone would be death if a Warrior is unlucky he still has his HP working for him.
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I out tank any knight I've encountered on SoD, save maybe Duke Fatass because he fucking owns ( Hodge ).
 
Zhak Morris said:
2 Monks vs Plate.
I would not want a monk as tank on our raids unless it would be for fun reasons or the fight is a pushover anyway. I am sure that a decently AA'ed Plate class would out tank any monk of the same lvl/aa. Sure monks can evade and all but if monks are unlucky everyone would be death if a Warrior is unlucky he still has his HP working for him.
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I out tank any knight I've encountered on SoD, save maybe Duke Fatass because he fucking owns ( Hodge ).
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Nerf Zhak.
 
Thanks Diolas finally you see my point, didnt ment to be a dick or anything to you, Blacksmithing may fix this. But will be nice to see Items that are already out there be upped in AC/HP for example BP of the mariner, butcher's apron, combine/dragon, and even BP of the warlord that are the most common the AC/HP, and from mobs 50+, is not even much of an upgrade from the BP that you get from a lvl 25 mob in miellechA.

so yeah, Blacksmithing and maybe upgrading old gear that is already there, because seriously...it sucks.

*oh notice i didnt put any example on plate pantns, mostly was BPs, well thats because there is no pants!
 
Yeah, virtually the only plate pants/sleeves are those of Sacrileged Battle, which take a pretty solid 65 group with either a decent puller or some fantastic CC to get (or some very creative illusion:skelly work).
 
Hasrett said:
Yeah, virtually the only plate pants/sleeves are those of Sacrileged Battle, which take a pretty solid 65 group with either a decent puller or some fantastic CC to get (or some very creative illusion:skelly work).
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I used to duo that guy back when he wasn't an hour long trek to get to.
 
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