beefing up the tanks

killspree said:
Person A could also have better equipment than person B which would make them tank better as well. If the plate tank is wearing level 15 armor, then yeah, there's a chance the level 50 monk is going to tank better than them.
My suggestion for looking at gear in the mid levels would be to think about what you'd buy if you were equipping two different naked characters at different levels - say, 30, 40, and 50. Suppose you have 500pp at 30, 3k at 40, and 7k at 50 (adjust those amounts a bit as needed, just trying to estimate about what you'd be likely to have accumulated).

At 30, for most classes you'd probably be best off getting a full set of wyvernfang armor, primary/secondary/range/charm, and maybe some silver jewelry, almost no matter what class. That's pretty reasonable. You're going to have quite a bit of distinction in AC, if nothing else, because plate classes will be wearing plate, chain chain, and so on.

At 40, consider two melees--one monk, one tank. For both, you'll likely spend a good chunk of your money on primary/secondary/range. If you have 2k left for armor and jewelry, what are you going to go for? I think it's pretty obvious--100-150pp jewelry (4/45 jewelry), possibly blue dragonscale wrists/gloves for the resists (which monks can wear, same as plate tanks), and as much wyvernhide as you can get. There might be a couple pieces where you'd be better off with something else (Gaia's Step, for instance, again for both classes--though monks would get more use out of it than pally/sk, since the latter don't kick), but that's limited.

At 50, with some more plat to spend, with both a monk and a tank, you'll probably have all plat jewelry, possibly with a few upgrades (earring of the betrayer, ring of the scale, ring of frost, etc... all equally useful to all melee classes), and a full set of wyvernhide that you're working on upgrading. You've probably found a haste item (likely the same one for either class), and blown a wad of cash on a couple of nice items. It's really not until you start getting those nice items, though, that you see much differentiation. A nice BP (Butcher's Apron or Chestplate of the Warlord), some Heavy Shelled Boots, that kinda thing. But even those require higher levels to get. Butcher's Apron needs a 65-ish group to get, CP of the Warlord a solid mid-50s group (possibly with a higher level tank, if the group isn't quite well put together), and the boots are from a mob that needs a 60+ group.

In terms of stuff you can obtain yourself at those levels, there's almost no differentiation at all. You get a little more when you start buying gear, but it's still limited until you start getting the quest armor. I mean, hell, I'm still using probably 8 pieces of wyvernfang or blue dragonscale--the same stuff I see a lot of monks and bsts in the 30s and 40s wearing. And I'm not badly equipped.
 
Killspree said he was going to look this up, woot victory. I will like to point up a couple of examples i noticed, and something that can be fixed easely:
captain's guard a BP that is warrior only has AC=30 and HP=30 and svm=5
it is warrior only and granted warriors should have the most AC/HP gear than any other class in the game. The point I'm trying to make here is if a warrior wants to upgrade this BP that drops from a lvl 20ish mob lets see what variables are there..BP of the mariner...Ac 30, butcher's aprons..ac 33, BP of the warlord..ac 37 hmmmm, okey deaconic...finally a 40ish ac BP but most of this comes from mobs that are up yo 40 levels higher than the mob required to get the Captain's guard. The only thing I see a tank upgrading here are stats. Now the rule for tanks as I see it are AC+HP comes first, second comes SAVES, third comes effects and last comes stats, WE dont depend on stats, and I get the feeling thats what the people that design the armor here gets, stats can be buffed by shammys just fine in a group or a raid.

My suggestion is bump up the AC/HP on this items that is a huge change, for example those BPs from lvls 55+ mobs I compared to the BP that drops from a 20ish mob should have at least 15-20 more AC and at least 30-40 more HP. If they are made pal/sk/war only BP's then they will not be overpowering at all. Also some effets like shield block+?%,hate increment and damage mitigation will be nice at early lvls even if it is just 1%, you know start low and work the way up. a lvl 50 player should not have any problems finding an 40AC/hp 45 BP and 30AC/35HP pants. Also while War has more AC and HP than SK/Pal, SK/PAL should have mana regen they need mana just as much as any casters for pulls/keeping agro and such so mana regen plate gear will be nice. So yeah all the plate gear could use a bump me up, and not just make new gear, but upgrade the gear that is already out there, and less focus on stats, thast what jewelry is for :) that's a good start.
 
i'd be happy with just having more control over my aggro. having to depend on luck and chance to keep aggro in a group is extremely frustrating, and as a result, i tend to avoid grouping.

i thought the Incite line that was added to live a while ago was a great fix to it. im not suggesting an uber-huge-100%-guaranteed-aggro-for-the-rest-of-the-fight-from-the-start skill, but having a something more than disarm and slam after a taunt would be great. as it is, i have to hope that after hitting taunt that i dont miss and the guy with aggro misses, or else it doesnt really work.

having a skill that allowed you some definite control over your aggro generation made tanking a lot funner.
 
Svan said:
i'd be happy with just having more control over my aggro. having to depend on luck and chance to keep aggro in a group is extremely frustrating, and as a result, i tend to avoid grouping.

i thought the Incite line that was added to live a while ago was a great fix to it. im not suggesting an uber-huge-100%-guaranteed-aggro-for-the-rest-of-the-fight-from-the-start skill, but having a something more than disarm and slam after a taunt would be great. as it is, i have to hope that after hitting taunt that i dont miss and the guy with aggro misses, or else it doesnt really work.

having a skill that allowed you some definite control over your aggro generation made tanking a lot funner.

Driving Attack
Pre-Reqs: Level 15
Stamina Usage: High (Active)
Effect: The warrior presses forward, seeking to distract his opponent with a series of rapid blows. Increases the warrior's aggression generation and attack speed, at the cost of a quick stamina loss and inability to parry or riposte attacks.
 
iaeolan said:
Svan said:
i'd be happy with just having more control over my aggro. having to depend on luck and chance to keep aggro in a group is extremely frustrating, and as a result, i tend to avoid grouping.

i thought the Incite line that was added to live a while ago was a great fix to it. im not suggesting an uber-huge-100%-guaranteed-aggro-for-the-rest-of-the-fight-from-the-start skill, but having a something more than disarm and slam after a taunt would be great. as it is, i have to hope that after hitting taunt that i dont miss and the guy with aggro misses, or else it doesnt really work.

having a skill that allowed you some definite control over your aggro generation made tanking a lot funner.

Driving Attack
Pre-Reqs: Level 15
Stamina Usage: High (Active)
Effect: The warrior presses forward, seeking to distract his opponent with a series of rapid blows. Increases the warrior's aggression generation and attack speed, at the cost of a quick stamina loss and inability to parry or riposte attacks.

Even at 65 with maxed STA, Driving Attack eats my endurance like a momo.
 
Driving attack is utterly useless. The usage is far too high to make it even close to viable as a means to hold aggro. You won't even use it on raid mobs as you'll be busy using your vindicator's stance.
 
also, the amount of hate the style does boost appears to be only a fraction more, and i still have to rely on the chance that the other player will miss their round and i wont miss in order to gain aggro from them after a taunt, if taunt works at all.
 
Wizards can land critical blast and ultimate blasts (name?) if I recall correctly. Do warriors land ultimate hits? If so, giving ultimate hits an increased aggro would help them a bit holding aggro.

Anyways, I think it's right that they have to work for their aggro. This is just to try to help warriors if they're really screwed.
 
while i appreciate your effort Bernat, your suggestion would only be more of the same problem, chance.

as i said before, i dont want an allmighty-aggro-forever button, only some constant that i know i can rely on when the unforgiving range fails me again and again.
 
Yes, giving it a second though I agree that it would be too casual to be effective. What about a warrior style that gives any critical you make during it an increased 100 points of aggro? Do you crit enough?

This won't be usable, as someone said, by warriors needing to use some ultra-defensive style, but the first moments of a raid may let settle aggro to move afterwards to a more secure and paced ch-chain.
 
basing anything of criticals would be way too sporadic, as the largest need for the aggro comes at the beginning of the fight and right after a taunt. at the moment, i crit non-bash once every 4 or so fights.

diolas, i realize that most dps calsses do have ways of decreasing their aggro, but all of them are also based on chance. a group that fights together often and meshes well could do just fine with smart use of their aggro reducing abilities, but in all the everyday groups i have been in, it just doenst happen
 
from my experience grouping with Kabre a rogue, the moment he hides/ducks(whatevah is called) and i taunt I get the agro on my SK, then as soon as he comes back and attacks again the agro goes back to him, hence what I mentined agro pong. Is he supposed to remain hidden till the mob is like 10% health so he dosen't get any agro?? >:p

from Experience grouping wiht Jebasrn a monk, the moment he FD's the agro goes to my SK, the moment he gets back and starts attacking the agro remains on him, unlike the rogue, this time I dont get agro pong, because regardless of how many spells I cast agro remains on the monk.

And yes my SK has agro buff on most of the times, and I'm not a newbie.
 
Laksha said:
from my experience grouping with Kabre a rogue, the moment he hides/ducks(whatevah is called) and i taunt I get the agro on my SK, then as soon as he comes back and attacks again the agro goes back to him, hence what I mentined agro pong. Is he supposed to remain hidden till the mob is like 10% health so he dosen't get any agro?? >:p

from Experience grouping wiht Jebasrn a monk, the moment he FD's the agro goes to my SK, the moment he gets back and starts attacking the agro remains on him, unlike the rogue, this time I dont get agro pong, because regardless of how many spells I cast agro remains on the monk.

And yes my SK has agro buff on most of the times, and I'm not a newbie.

As an SK, you should seldom lose aggro to a anyone who is similarly geared.
If the camp permits, use your least dark spell to pull, or if you dont want to wait that long, just open with any of these, depending on your level :

at level 15
http://wr.camongrel.de/id:2051
http://wr.camongrel.de/id:344

at level 29
http://wr.camongrel.de/id:370
and darkness still

at level 30
http://wr.camongrel.de/id:363
and darkness

at level 34
http://wr.camongrel.de/id:1220
and the previous debuff, throw in dark if you feel like it.

at level 39
http://wr.camongrel.de/id:1224
http://wr.camongrel.de/id:367
other debuff adn dark if you need it

at level 44
http://wr.camongrel.de/id:1221
and whatever previous debuffs/dots you had going earlier

level 50
http://wr.camongrel.de/id:1415 for your new debuff,
and the previous hate modifier as well as dots/snares/debuffs from previous, as needed.

level 53
http://wr.camongrel.de/id:1222 this is your new best friend
throw in debuffs/dots whatever, low many, fast casting stuff.

level 59
http://wr.camongrel.de/id:1223 this is an awesome spell to land when you are pulling. This plus snare/dot/debuff while the mob is coming to you, you shouldn't be able to lose aggro as long as yuo pay attention and keep pumping in hate at a reasonable rate.

level 61
http://wr.camongrel.de/id:542 This creates oodles of hate, even on mobs that the mez doesnt affect (or used to, anyway).

level 63
http://wr.camongrel.de/id:2549 assloads of aggro. throw in a dot and debuff here and there, and you're golden.


Theres more too, but these are among your best aggro generating tools as an SK sub 65.
 
Yeah, SKs should have zero problem with aggro. Even if you lose it, hit taunt once before they evade/fd. If it succeeds, you'll be 1 aggro over their pre-evade total, not their post-evade aggro. That's a good thing. Throw on a debuff on top of that. Debuffs = ultimate aggro now, equivalent to several DDs of similar level.
 
yeah i agree Hasritt, when i play my 50 sk, i have no problems holding aggro when i want to, even if the shm gets slow aggro i can bounce it right back to me with a single cast, often times the shm can slow in inc. Terror of Shadows + Scream of Pain = aggro for the rest of the fight..... unless the other tank types in my group feel like competing for aggro but easy to maintain anyway :)
 
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