okey probably Wiz is sick and tired of hearing this, but I feel plate armor in this server has not been given the right judgement, sick of seeing people wearing leather and chain mail armor with same AC as plate. also alot of leather with lots more HP than plate. My point is people that can wear plate, mainly PAL/SK/WAR need that AC and HP, I really dont see why monks have a belt that has 100HP whey they are not tanks, and can also wear high AC as wyrmhide. A good example is the plate pants that drops from Haunted treant has the same AC as the pants that drop from price Truend in Kaladim and are chain. I was thinking that a good way to see AC/hp for plate classes will be by their lvl, a war/pal/sk at lvl 40 should be able to get a BP of ac 40/50hp, pants ac 35/45 and the rest ac 20 or so with exception of jewelry and maybe the mask, and toy with those numbers depending on the dificulty to get. I don't think that will be over powering at all, also I see lots and lots of items for casters with nice effects, mana regen for a caster DOES alot for a caster, even if it is mana regen 1. For a tank HP regen does nothing, specially when mobs are hitting for the 300s, HP regen is mainly for necros and shamans that can convert HP to mana. So how about agro increasing items/avoidance increments/damage reduction/dodge increments/block increments effects on shields/stun resistance/more haste items on early on items so it can help tank classes do their job, just like all those other items that help casters do their job. so far it seems to me that to get an effect like those i need to sacrifice lots of HP/AC, and that should not be the way for tanks, DPS classes can afford that, not tanks. Thanks for reading.
beefing up the tanks
- Thread starter Laksha
- Start date
id like the stats of a leather armor that look like this plate then:
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP
Slot: CHEST
AC: 65
Effect: (Combat, 1.0)
STR: +30 DEX: +20 STA: +30 WIS: +15 INT: +15 AGI: +20 HP: +165 MANA: +100
SV MAGIC: +35
Damage Reduction: +8
Weight: 7.5 Size: Medium
Class: WAR CLE PAL SHD BRD
Race: ALL
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP
Slot: CHEST
AC: 65
Effect: (Combat, 1.0)
STR: +30 DEX: +20 STA: +30 WIS: +15 INT: +15 AGI: +20 HP: +165 MANA: +100
SV MAGIC: +35
Damage Reduction: +8
Weight: 7.5 Size: Medium
Class: WAR CLE PAL SHD BRD
Race: ALL
Zhak Morris
Dalayan Beginner
This post made me cry for more than a few reasons
The next standard upgrade after wyvernfang quest armor is player-made wyrm/wyvern hide armor, which is just leather armor. I'm sure he's just missing some smithing armor that is equal but with a bit more AC. And I'm sure they're already working on implementing Smithing.
By the way, is there a silk armor equal to wyrm/wyvern hide?
By the way, is there a silk armor equal to wyrm/wyvern hide?
Noktar, why will you like to see that AC on a leather? people that use leather mainly need the stats not the AC/HP. casters are about stats not AC/HP sure it will help, but mana and int+cha and mana regen robe of 10 AC you will wear it over a 65AC tunic that didnt had those stats, and same should a rogue for something that has backstamming modifier or haste. Leather is not ment to have as much AC as plate and thats what I'm arguing about that all i see is leather and chain with SAME or better AC as plate, hence my SK is not wearing much plate. Also not saying to come out with new gear, just sugested to upgrade the plate gear that is already there.
okey hhmmm let me give an example: look at nahra's wanelo, since early lvls I was able to give her mana conservation, ft1, healing increment nad buff duration increment. Now look at Narmarratuk and see how many effect gear he has that will help him tank better and look at how much plate he is wearing. this is not high end you are arguing high end, and I agree on some high end stuff, but havent got there yet...Thou that BP has AC 65 and I seen many AC 65 BPS here, and of course lvl 65 to get so that makes sence for my theory of lvls=AC obtainable. But at52 wearing ac 25BP....
okey hhmmm let me give an example: look at nahra's wanelo, since early lvls I was able to give her mana conservation, ft1, healing increment nad buff duration increment. Now look at Narmarratuk and see how many effect gear he has that will help him tank better and look at how much plate he is wearing. this is not high end you are arguing high end, and I agree on some high end stuff, but havent got there yet...Thou that BP has AC 65 and I seen many AC 65 BPS here, and of course lvl 65 to get so that makes sence for my theory of lvls=AC obtainable. But at52 wearing ac 25BP....
Laksha: Noktar was being sarcastic. He was challenging for someone to find a piece of leather armor that has tank stats remotely close to those which he provided, not saying that leather armor should have those stats. The key word was "that", had it been "to" (look like this plate) then he would have been pushing for leather armor to like like that. Probably just a slight misreading.
And sp4mm has the right idea, of course leather armor should have less AC/HP etc than similar plate armor, but they should still have a really nice of AC/HP because well, some leather classes have to take hits. Monks can take hits from (multiple) hard mobs when pulling, and they are sort of a tank class (their innate avoidance allows them to do so, and that is one of their roles in general), just not on the end game nameds.
And sp4mm has the right idea, of course leather armor should have less AC/HP etc than similar plate armor, but they should still have a really nice of AC/HP because well, some leather classes have to take hits. Monks can take hits from (multiple) hard mobs when pulling, and they are sort of a tank class (their innate avoidance allows them to do so, and that is one of their roles in general), just not on the end game nameds.
Agree, and it if was to mee monks should not be able to tank that well thou, infact the reason why so many people make shammy/monk combos here is because they can tank just as good as a warrior, do damage like a rogue, and that is WAY overpowering. And yes leather armor should have those stats.
I dont think at lvl 52 there are such things as twink, but you can check out his wanelo, his name is jebasrn, and no, he was not twinked, but his gear was okey. However now he got more lvls and gave up on adept and got himself some better gear he ddint had at the raid. However i will dare to say that the tank that did it first attempt was MUCH better twinked.
gorgetrapper
Dalayan Beginner
I can vouch for Laksha (Narmarratuk) on this. A monk WAS tanking the Lord Commander Ragarati MUCH better than a plate tank was doing. On our first attempt, we got the mob down to 80% or so before the whole raid wiped, the tank went down FAST. Then on our second attempt, we used a monk. We got the mob down to 30% or so, and the reason we didn't kill him is because we did not have enough melee, a lot of people were casters.
The point trying to get across here is, monks should not be able to tank better than any kind of plate class, excluding maybe a cleric and bard. The tanks we used during the fight had over roughly 1000AC and couldn't tank him for shit, then we stuck a MONK up there, with roughly the SAME amount of AC, due to the fact that leather has about the same, if not higher, AC than plate did. Why should this make any sense? It doesn't.
Leather classes should not have the ability to reach the same amount of AC as a plate class. That's how it should be. Might as well just get rid of warriors, shadowknights and pallies because monks are apparently better at tanking than these 3 classes.
The point trying to get across here is, monks should not be able to tank better than any kind of plate class, excluding maybe a cleric and bard. The tanks we used during the fight had over roughly 1000AC and couldn't tank him for shit, then we stuck a MONK up there, with roughly the SAME amount of AC, due to the fact that leather has about the same, if not higher, AC than plate did. Why should this make any sense? It doesn't.
Leather classes should not have the ability to reach the same amount of AC as a plate class. That's how it should be. Might as well just get rid of warriors, shadowknights and pallies because monks are apparently better at tanking than these 3 classes.
How do you expect us to somehow balance tanks against monks based on a single fight with a serious lack of information? There's zero hard data here that suggests medium level tanks (40-60, which I know will grab some attention, but really it's true when you take AA's into account) are somehow worse off then monks of comparable level and equipment.
I'm suspecting it was a lucky streak of avoidance on the monk and a whole heap of padding.
Edit: And for the asinine claim that we should get rid of tanks? Hahahah oh god, I'd love to see that. We'd all be back to raiding awesome things such as, I dunno, Husrag. Or Slavemaster Jorleg.
Awesome times.
I'm suspecting it was a lucky streak of avoidance on the monk and a whole heap of padding.
Edit: And for the asinine claim that we should get rid of tanks? Hahahah oh god, I'd love to see that. We'd all be back to raiding awesome things such as, I dunno, Husrag. Or Slavemaster Jorleg.
Awesome times.
gorgetrapper
Dalayan Beginner
I guess sarcasm is hard to detect here...
As it stands now tanks aren't really "defined" as tanks in the lower levels. Things like this need to be put into play right away or people get turned away from the class due to seeing something like a monk tanking better than a warrior/sk/pally early on.
By some of the posts here, people obviously don't care about the lower level and just themselves and their groups in thei higher end.
As it stands now tanks aren't really "defined" as tanks in the lower levels. Things like this need to be put into play right away or people get turned away from the class due to seeing something like a monk tanking better than a warrior/sk/pally early on.
By some of the posts here, people obviously don't care about the lower level and just themselves and their groups in thei higher end.
Xeldan
Staff Emeritus
If the only classes that tanked well at lower levels were the plate classes, it would be really difficult for some classes to solo(moreso than it already can be).
If it's an equipment issue, try to point out the holes in equipment(i.e. level ranges where x armor type has y whereas z armor type doesn't), because unless there's more info than "this monk tanked better than the warrior", it's really hard to judge whether there's a problem or not.
Person A could also have better equipment than person B which would make them tank better as well. If the plate tank is wearing level 15 armor, then yeah, there's a chance the level 50 monk is going to tank better than them.
If it's an equipment issue, try to point out the holes in equipment(i.e. level ranges where x armor type has y whereas z armor type doesn't), because unless there's more info than "this monk tanked better than the warrior", it's really hard to judge whether there's a problem or not.
Person A could also have better equipment than person B which would make them tank better as well. If the plate tank is wearing level 15 armor, then yeah, there's a chance the level 50 monk is going to tank better than them.
A single fight isn't grounds for sweeping changes. Period.
This does, however, bring up an interesting point. There are almost no good plate items in the mid levels. Wyvernfang plate is pretty good around 20-30, but after that, the upgrade is leather (Wyvernhide), whether you're a warrior or a monk. That's kinda lame. There are certainly a few plate pieces in that level range, but for the most part you're stuck with leather gear, identical to what most monks of the same level are going to be wearing. As Wiz has said, in SoD there is no difference in mitigation based on class, so a warrior in full wyvernhide (fairly well equipped for a warrior in the 40s or 50s) is going to have the same mitigation in the base stances as a comparably equipped monk. With tailoring in and developed, but no smithing, plate tanks do kinda get screwed until they get into the 50s or 60s and can take some heavy duty mobs or farm SK/DHK quest pieces and gems.
On my 64 paladin, I'm still using almost all leather, with the exception of a cloth graphic BP (Butcher's Apron) and chain wrists/gloves (blue dragonscale). Shields are also rather limited at lower levels. The best I could find as a pally was the starfall, geared towards the 30s, until tonight at 64. For SKs and others, there's the Dreadfang one (23ac 35hp/mana), which is even worse than the pally starfall. Not sure if there's something else out there, but it certainly isn't obvious, and didn't turn up in OOC when I asked.
What I'd love to see would be something to distinguish plate and chain classes gear-wise from leather pre-SK/DHK quest gear.
Oh yeah, and what's with plate helms? Helmet of spell warding is the only 15+ac head for a long time for plate wearers, while rogues and rng and co get that sweet 18ac +sta/hp hat, owns the hell out of spell warding!
This does, however, bring up an interesting point. There are almost no good plate items in the mid levels. Wyvernfang plate is pretty good around 20-30, but after that, the upgrade is leather (Wyvernhide), whether you're a warrior or a monk. That's kinda lame. There are certainly a few plate pieces in that level range, but for the most part you're stuck with leather gear, identical to what most monks of the same level are going to be wearing. As Wiz has said, in SoD there is no difference in mitigation based on class, so a warrior in full wyvernhide (fairly well equipped for a warrior in the 40s or 50s) is going to have the same mitigation in the base stances as a comparably equipped monk. With tailoring in and developed, but no smithing, plate tanks do kinda get screwed until they get into the 50s or 60s and can take some heavy duty mobs or farm SK/DHK quest pieces and gems.
On my 64 paladin, I'm still using almost all leather, with the exception of a cloth graphic BP (Butcher's Apron) and chain wrists/gloves (blue dragonscale). Shields are also rather limited at lower levels. The best I could find as a pally was the starfall, geared towards the 30s, until tonight at 64. For SKs and others, there's the Dreadfang one (23ac 35hp/mana), which is even worse than the pally starfall. Not sure if there's something else out there, but it certainly isn't obvious, and didn't turn up in OOC when I asked.
What I'd love to see would be something to distinguish plate and chain classes gear-wise from leather pre-SK/DHK quest gear.
Oh yeah, and what's with plate helms? Helmet of spell warding is the only 15+ac head for a long time for plate wearers, while rogues and rng and co get that sweet 18ac +sta/hp hat, owns the hell out of spell warding!