Bard Changes

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Foma

Dalayan Adventurer
Post replies here with bard problems in light of the current experimental changes.

To set the stage: Wiz just put in an EXPERIMENTAL change to how bards work, fundamentally. They now can sort of 'auto-twist' 2 songs with no further mashing of keys until they die of carpal tunnel. THIS IS GOOD NEWS.

The way I *currently* understand it's implementation, any song that used to go to the short buff box, and thus were beneficial in nature, should be allowed to be added to your 2-song 'melody' list. Click and it adds.

Things that SHOULDN'T go to the melody list are things like dots, snare, debuffs, etc.

THere are a lot of songs he will likely have to recode as to which buff box they go to.

Oh, as a bonus, he fixed Occlusion of Sound (and I think Lull) to no longer need bogus components. Thanks, man.

So add bugs and observations here please.

My observations:

Putting 2 songs in the melody and then adding 2 dots: 2nd dot goes on but turns off all melodies and the other dot, until I stop manually adding the 2 dots. When I stop, the melodies pulse back on automatically. This is probably by design, just an observation. Oh and when things like this or any other situation stops the melodies, they don't last like before. The effect leaves immedately.
 
- sitting cancels all songs, meaning all mezzes, charms, selos are broken. (i find i change songs a lot while charming and in groups to cure disease etc) can not med while having a charmed or mezzed mob (i use this often a lot in a pinch)
- lvl 49 selos acts as a O song (depleting all usefullness over the lvl 5 song)
- can not mez and dispell at the same time (to get rid of caster mob buffs)
- bash cancels all songs
- songs only intended to be cast once cycle and can not be stopped. i.e. lull, alliance, charm, mez
- casting a song twice on 2 different targets causes it to take effect on both, but cycle on the first. and can only be stopped by sitting or using a different O song.
- you can no longer sit and sing anything, making mana song obsolete for bards again and moreso regen song w/ sitting regen useless.
- can no longer mez and camp because it obviously cancels when you sit. This way of removing aggro is gone.



not sure but since invis was not a song which was in the song buff box, it now is considered an O song, meaning u can now sing 2 beneficial songs as well as invis.


imo only 3 second duration songs should be put in this. and i dont like the idea of stopping a song by either stopping them all or replacing it with something else. mez for example needs to be broken which also breaks selos
 
Wiz,

Could you please post a list of all the bard changes/functionality that you were going over last night in /ooc? Thanks. :)
 
I would prefer if we could somehow change sit back to duck to cancel a song. *OR*, maybe a way to cancel the manual song singing and a different method of cancelling the melody currently being sung.
 
Its a good idea, but I would rather be able to twist my 4 songs, than be limited to 2 song autotwist. The issue with buffs fading when you sit(fade on everyone) makes it very hard to not only solo, sit with healing song on to regen up, or CC more than 1 mob as everyone else has stated is the biggest issue.

I don't know how/why this thread got derailed on the subject of bashing, as bashing before only interrupted our current song that we are singing, it has NEVER faded all of our songs we have already sung. Bashing is not the issue, the way bard songs are coded is.

The easiest fix I can think of is to make it a /cmd melody option, for those of us who do not wish to use this.


Lucli - 64 Bard <Beyond>
 
Missing a note currently stops all songs. The one I want to manually sing and both songs in the melody. I would prefer it to only stop what you are trying to start at that moment. So if I am adding a song to the melody and miss a note, the song doesn't get added to the melody, but doesn't cancel the current song(s) in the melody. If I am trying to manually sing a dot or whatever, it should abort just that dot.
 
Tried to do some soloing today:

Sang Occlusion and then followed it up with charm. The 2nd song (Charm) immediately made the 1st (occlusion) wear off. Not sure on the timing whether charm got to benefit from the lower MR of occlusion or not.

Charm song kept going and sucked my mana bar dry in seconds. Only way to stop it was to sit, which promtply broke charm. Even if it did only cast once, I would have problems with the new song limitations. Before I would often have charm, selo's, 4 chants, + snare all in effect while charming. Now I'm down to one song of the above.

Tried to chant kite, 1st chant causes Selo's to wear off. 2nd chant causes 1st chant to stop. Before I could twist 4 chants + Selo's and now I'm down to 1 chant.

I'm not sure how the heck we can solo like this without some major rework to basic bard functionality or our songs.

Setup a quick test with a 2 song melody and mezzed 2 targets. The melody kept running if I would mez one target and then the other. The melody would stop if I targeted the same mob twice in a row.

/Stopsong seems to do nothing now. Agree with above bards that we need a way to stop singing. I really don't want to hit the puller with a song on incoming and really don't want to have to sit/stand just to stop singing.

For exp grouping, I usually don't target the mob much with harmful songs. Usually its 3-4 group songs. I will work in our longer lasting slow/snare song if no one else is there to cover those duties as well. A permanent 2 song twist leaves things to be desired. One pretty regular twist is Haste+Overhaste+Mana/Health regen is a twist I can't do today. (let alone add a 4th song in for a damage shield or anything else). I'm not sure I like trading the 3rd and 4th song for just 2 songs that are always running.

Bard spam, I like to see basic messages of the song I have running.

I like Before: (3 song twist)

Your feet move faster - 1st tick
Your pulse begins to race - 2nd tick
Your mind clears - 3rd tick

vs Today (2 song melody + 1 song other)

Your feet move faster - 1st tick
Your song has ended.
Your pulse begins to race.
Your song has ended.
Your mind clears.
Your song has ended
Your feet move faster - 2nd tick
Your song has ended.
Your pulse begins to race.
Your song has ended.
Your mind clears.
Your song has ended.
Your feet move faster - 3rd tick
Your song has ended.
Your pulse begins to race.
Your song has ended.
Your mind clears.
Your song has ended.

Interesting experimental changes to say the least.
 
I'd like to know how many people who actually play bards, think this is a change for the better...but I still cant find much good in the change.
 
Perhaps this is not the best way to view this situation, but just as an example: When I sit down to play SoD, most of the time I get a good 30 minutes to 2 hours in (maybe). There is a few times I get to glutton, and perhaps play 2-5+ hours in a day, but very seldom. Hence, I chose to be a bard; I could solo at my own pace, and group when I had the time. Yet, with this new change in the most fundamental of bard song proccesses, I find the new "twist" (get it) of casting to not only be very difficult to grow accustomed to, but to be very difficult to be effective as a solo-er (kiting or bard-bruisin'). Yet, I have not tried grouping with the new system. I have not had time, and therefore cannot bellow any negatives to that aspect of the changes.

I believe that most of what pains the process is listed in the above posts, so I will not go into a detailed chant (it would cut off other brain functions currently being used) about specifics, but I would hope that maybe some of these specifics might be altered a bit more to boost the bard's usefullness back up to its usuall self-proclaimed class of grandeur. Not that bards were the best before this, but at least we could think we were...

Just a sidenote: if this was truely a way to get rid of button mashing for bards...let me keep mashing buttons. I loved the consant flow of action and planning it took to be a bard, as well as it's usefullness to keep me awake after a fifth of wine and a day off work. It's why I chose to be a bard, and I really had fun playing up till now. Then again, I could not be giving it the chance it deserves. I'll try it for a bit longer, but I cannot promise satisfaction.
 
I play a bard as my main, but in the current state with this patch, I won't be logging on till this issue is resolved/reverted back.

Lucli
64 Bard <Beyond>
 
The new changes make it easier to group and be lazy, that's for sure. As a result, there will probably be an increase in bard bots. This isn't necessarily bad in-and-of-itself, but I am jealous of my own position among the few bards on the server, so generally anything that makes it easier I will have a knee-jerk reaction against :lol: And, to be fair, more bards aren't usually needed as much as other classes (ie a 2nd bard doesnt bring as much to the table as a 2nd monk) so havng fewer bards on the server is also pleasing to me

However, because of the problems listed, it does make it harder to be in a group and switch from one mode to another, namely from *sitting back and playing buff/regen songs* to *OMG multipull and enc's afk eating a sandwich I am on CC with mez/charm*

It definitely made soloing harder. Not sure if this was a desired effect (purposeful nerf) or not. If so, well, maybe it was needed.

Someone told me today that all group-spells are now AE affecting everyone in range, not just group. I think that's AWESOME.

I am wondering what any other options might be for alternatives to melody. Something else that might give bards more options other than mashing keys.

So, all in all, I like the versatility of now being able to be lazy in a group and still appear to be a contributing member :lol: But I don't like the disability to solo anymore. So yea, if it can be turned on and off, that'd be great.
 
cloud2276 said:
I play a bard as my main, but in the current state with this patch, I won't be logging on till this issue is resolved/reverted back.

Lucli
64 Bard <Beyond>
Click to expand...

Likewise... I'll be doing other things or playing my monk.. its near impossible for me to function in a group if i find one and absolutely impossible to solo

For people who don't play bards, or who would like a bard box.. this is great... but for those of us who play bards (and obviously enjoy the task of twisting if they get anywhere with a bard), its a real pain. The usefulness of not having to constantly twist is outweighed by the impossibleness to twist 3 beneficial songs in a group (what really is useful to twist offensively in a good group? snare/slow are worthless because others do, useing dots instead of a group song is selfish and hurts overall dps, and mezzing is only limited to a few occasions if there is no enchanter). Being able to only use 1 dot at a time is another headache... there was talk about upping the damage for them, but whats the point really? if you up the damage, then why not use it while grouping w/ 2 other songs for group? soloing damage (which used to take up all twisting time) with group beneficial songs now, sounds like we will either be crazy in groups now or be horribly underpowered solo.


EDIT - I like how everyone refers bard twisting as 'button mashing'... its not... kick/taunt etc is button mashing... you could literally take your fist and just mash the keyboard and perform well (i have a monk alt and played one to 52, i know what im tlaking about) but bard twisitng is not that... its precise key commands which require planning and thought into wtf you are doing.
 
You need to keep in mind this is a very experimental change so there will more than likely be bugs/issues that need to be tweaked. Don't get upset and threaten to quit your class over it - this isn't some big money corporation milking you dry. We actually care what you think.
 
Did some grouping last night. I felt completely useless to the group. I could only do a fraction of what I normally do. No doubt some of it was due to the newness of the system, but a lot was basic functionality. (lull, charm not even an option, not enough group songs going) The bash stopping all songs really hurt as for whatever reason I was an aggro magnet last night. I couldn't provide a reliable mez or haste for my group as I kept getting bashed and stunned by plague priests.

On the flip side, being able to twist 2 songs with no effort during downtime was nice. Not terribly useful. but nice nonetheless.
 
Summary from a high-level bard (which was the main focus of the change, btw):

Grouping: tons easier. I am less effective, but it's not terrible, in most groups. I usually sing blademasters+Relic Warcry because in my groups most folks don't need the resist gear, even for hard caster fights. If I have a melee-heavy group that's weak on resists, I might do bladmasters+psalm of the four, but this combo is rare.

In either case, for my 3rd song I sing either chant of fire or frost, depending on the mob's resists, usually without instrument swapping. So I am doing less DPS, a bit (I'm guessing ~10ish less dps personally); my group is doing less dps and/or getting cast on for a bit more, so using more healer mana. Again, none of that has slowed down XP to abominable levels or wiped the group. We're still successful. It's just less benefit from the single bard in the group than before. Nobody has skipped me for a group, but that's partially personality, too.

On to soloing: I can't, realistically. Due to the changes to chants/dots, I can only sing one. It took all 4 dots to do a kill of, say, a level 52 boulder - and that method took about 3 minutes or a tad less, before. If I used one dot with an instrument, it would take about 14 minutes (best guess, knowing the numbers). And it would take about 3-5 of those to make 1% aaxp. Best guess with that method is about 100 hours for a single aaxp. No thanks. I won't even try, even if my numbers are off a lot. =)

I know changes are coming - and soon. I won't quit the class. Those of you doing so are jumping to conclusions. Now, at whatever level you are, your options are obviously different than mine, but I think you still add to groups. Heck, though I wouldn't ENJOY it, you could go to a group and just sing ONE song and be a benefit, especially if you actually make a friend. Heck with this system you could sing in a melody just a melee buff and a regen buff and have an easy day or 10, depending on how long the fixes take. So take heart, go out and have some bard fun and enjoy the lack of physical strain. Do something you wouldn't before, strike up a conversation in a group that isn't little bits and pieces of text. =)

Later.
 
I found that missing a note not only fails the current song, but cancels the melody and all song effects, yet another pain.
 
Problems I had in the one minute I played my bard before going back to my necro:

Selo's effect canceled imediately upon being stuned, so added to difficulty of getting away from whatever stuned me while trying to recast selos

Snare on a mob was over written by dot

All dots overwritten by all other dots, basically meaning I can only have one spell going on a mob at a time I guess.

Not sure if this is intentional, but it sucks. Going to play my necro till this is fixed, gl to all you bardic folks out there.
 
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