Another melee stance for Bards & Beastlords?

S

stickupkid

Dalayan Beginner
Melee Stances Bard (and Beastlord)

Currently the other hybrids /Paladins, SKs and Rangers) have 8 stances vs. only 7 on bard and beastlord.
I can't really speak for Beastlords, but as a bard I think another stance would be a really nice addition and is kind of missing.

Currently we have an accuray increasing stance (/s 4), a non-interrupt stance (/s 5), an emergency stance which makes us dogde all melee for a short time (/s 6) and our 65 stance (/s 7) which increases resists and makes immune to mezz and fear which drains stamina way too fast to be useful by the way, not even long enough for half the fight on most raid mobs where is kinda the only place we might use it. Usually we end switching between /s 4 and /s 2 (when low on stamina) and occasionally /s 6 on emergencies.

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I would like to hear what other bards think about this but imo we are lacking some kind of tanking support stance other than /s 3.

Sure we dont tank often, mostly only on weak shit and maybe if shit hit the fan and the tank died, but still Bards are plate and somewhat tankish too with their high ac even if our melee skills are somewhat crippled. I dont talk about something as good as paladins get off course. But some mitigation increasing and/or hate generation increasing stance would fit good I think. That one could have moderate stamina drain, so that you cannot use it all the time.

Another idea I have that is nice i think would be a instrument mod increasing stance. (not too big so it doesnt get overpowered off course)

The third idea I have would be an even better and more stamina draining melee DPS stance. What would be nice is a stance that would make us double attack more and/or added more accuracy or pure damage to our hits.

The final idea would be some kind of proc stance which either lets us proc alot more or adds some special proc to our weapons as long as the stance is active. (that could even be +aggro) and act like the tanking stance i mentioned above.
(only useful if that procing problem while starting/twisting songs get fixed)


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What I personally would like to see the most is really a mitigation/hate generating stance. Bards are made for versatility but our tanking lacks to be honest and a stance which drains stamina would be the best "fix" to it without making us too good tanks. The tanking stance could even be limited to only work while we use a shield to make them more useful for us too, other than just adding AC.

Arhagn, my guildmate bard who plays here alot longer than me and is my mentor kind off, and with who I talk alot about our class, also thinks the same way about a tanking stance, but I would like to hear what other people and devs think about this.

And @beastlords, if that bothers you too (I have no idea if it does, i just saw they also only got 7 stances vs. 8 like the other hybrids) then post your ideas for an 8th stance here too.



Myrah
65++ Bard - Exodus

EDIT: added some text-formatting and minor fixes
 
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didnt want to edit the openpost too much, but before we talk about details how the stances actually could work (i got a few ideas up my sleeve for tankin stance for example, that seem reasonable to me) lets talk about in what direction that a new stance should go.
 
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From my personal experience with bards at the 65+ level, grouping with them and boxing two different ones. The two bards I have spent very extensive amounts of time grouping with, which are also the same two I have boxed, I have very rarely seen have aggro gathering problems. They have been able to hold multi-target aggro almost as effectively and completely as I've seen any Paladin do, let alone single target. Maybe your playing the wrong songs there, there are some very nice aggro grabbers.

From a mitigation standpoint, it's my personal opinion that if you count bards as a "tank" class, and list them in terms of mitigation compared to the other three. Lets put things on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 bad 10 good.

Mitigation:
Warrior: 10
SK: 9
Paladin: 8
Bard: 6.5
Rogue: 4
Ranger: 4
(Last two are just for reference)


If you hold that to be true, given that Bards have immensely more utility in XP groups and raids, even while tanking, it would be fitting that their mitigation would fall a tad bit below true "tank" level. You play a jack of all trades class. You can DPS decently, tank decently, solo above decently, provide very effective crown control, overhaste (always important), increase spell dmg (also very important), Pot4 (invaluable). The list can go on.

Of all classes, I feel bards need the least attention in terms of any kind of buff. An increase of some kind to mitigation would have to come at a cost. The ONLY way I see this mitigation boost being implemented without making bards more overly powerful than they already are is with the requirement of wearing a shield to get it. Possibly a new stance that gives a Shield Mastery while draining stamina. (Not too fast, but faster than Paladin stance 4)
 
Monk and ranger are way above bards in terms of tanking ability.

Would I like to see a new stance? Sure, who doesn't want free stuff for their class?

Do I think a new stance is necessary? No, not at all, but I would like to see the stance be an aggro generation/damage mitigation type stance if one were to be added (which has a .01% chance to happen).
 
Well, a tanking stance would really need a large mod to melee aggro, because you lose the safety of /s 4. So there is a good chance while tanking that your aggro spells are gonna be interrupted.

Either way, most people agree it won't happen. Many of those people would agree it isn't even necessary. And yeah, I forgot to add monk and I hit the wrong key for ranger, didn't want to bother editing.
 
Note: alot of words. If you are in a hurry just read the underlined part.

I have to say the immunity stance is a fast drainer, but never too bad. Most fights now: it can be maintained thru the duration or at least 85% of it. Just remember to keep/ask for stamina regen buffs on raids. On many fights the stance is needed, you also have the warrior's warcry at some point to keep you from having to use your stance all the time.

True enough that we are pretty decent at collecting stray agro. My job on alot of the fights with multi-add spawns is to collect them and drag them over to the paladin, incase he misses any/ is out of range. We dont really have any issues with drawing area agro in situations like that: ie: noone is actively damaging them, just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Another stance isnt really necessary, but if we did happen to gain one: The tanking stance would be nice to have. Some +agro to our melee/songs with a small boost in mitigation would be an excellent addition to the line.

The one problem I tend to have when trying to pull agro off of someone is the fact that my cast time on songs sucks compared to how fast they are dropping in health (I'm looking at your squishy caster types). Something that adds a small bit of +agro to each swing would be a godsend to saving someone when mezing the mob isnt an option (like due to cast time/ mob level/ etc...). Certainly I would not want it to be high enough that bards become a new tank class for groups (I have enough stuff to slack off from doing as it is...). but it would be nice to know that when we need to save a group we can.
 
@ Felyn:

I don't see how you call this "free". After all we have less stances than the other melees, and if you think about it, /s 5 (the stance where your songs detrimental songs cannot be interrupted) isnt really used at all. (veeeeery rarely, and only if we do something critical for the situation, like keeping the mob slowed when he dispells himself AND AE Stuns... you get the point - i use that one 0.01% of the time... if you do it more often, please explain the situations so I see the "worth" of that stance)

Ok ok it would be actually for free meaning we shouldnt get something else removed or altered when a new stance *should* be added, but I am not asking about something uba here either.

This should have drawbacks off course. One "drawback" could be that we do have to use a shield to use the mitigation stance like i mentioned above, or lowering our dps somehow else, while keeping or even upping the hate generation comoared to the other stances. That would also benefit overall shield usage alot for a bard I think. I do have an Amalgated Greatshield with 90ac augged (more than my bp with just 70) - still I raaaarely use it, because the melee dps is downed alot while the tanking isnt upped much.
 
Ok. First off, Bards aren't hybrid classes. They're casters. Bards do melee and wear plate, but on the same hand so do clerics.

Keep in mind that the only class I can speak for here is ranger, so I will be making my comparisons between the two classes.

Rangers only have a few stances that are worth using. When a ranger tanks, they use /s 3. That's regular defensive stance. While /s 4 (Blade Guard) is a fantastic stance for mitigating damage, we have no way of keeping aggro while in that stance. We'd probably have a hard time keeping aggro in that stance even if we could equip frostwrath. Bards currently have several fantastic ways to keep aggro if they really want it.

For rangers, stances 5 (whirling strikes), 6 (relentless parry), and 7 (flurry of shots) are basically worthless. Stance 5 is useless because a ranger shouldn't be meleeing unless they're expecting to get hit. Stance 6 is useless because if /s 4 and Foresight won't keep us alive, there's no point in waiting out the 15 minutes for exhaustion can end after we die, which will be as soon as that stance drops. Stance 7 is worthless because you gain no dps and end up exhausted.

Rangers cannot equip any high-end shields. There are a few low-end shields that are ranger useable. However, I have not seen any shield tier 5 or higher that has RNG on it, although I do see BRD on it. If you want to bring up the "BRD needs more mitigation," then request that BRD and RNG be added to the Targe of the Adjutants. Heck, if that happened I have one banked I'll throw on right now, since I consider melee weapons to be little more than stat slots anyways.

Bards really aren't meant to be tanks or offtanks, despite the plate armor. High AC and nimble are meant to keep a bard alive if they accidentally pull aggro or need to try and yank mobs off of casters. However, they're not indicators of a bard being a tankish class. Using the "bards are warrior/caster hybrids" argument is also untrue, because bards are casters.

Bards have a lot going for them as a utility class. Amping them up so they can buff/debuff/crowd control/kite and off-tank would really be too much for one class, and something would have to go. Pick an area you wouldn't mind giving up for the ability to secondary tank.
 
Eustace said:
Rangers cannot equip any high-end shields. There are a few low-end shields that are ranger useable. However, I have not seen any shield tier 5 or higher that has RNG on it, although I do see BRD on it. .
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What about that shield from Valor A
 
I'm just chiming in here to say that I use styles 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 fairly regularly - if situationally at times. The only one I don't use very often is 2 (aggressive stance) because if I want to do a lil more dps I just use 4. So I'm confused by you guys saying these stances are worthless or you never use them, because that has not been my experience at all.

Bards are an odd class, but yes, I'd categorize them as casters and I wouldn't mind if they kept their current stance setup (*cough* could use an archaic though *cough*).

It *is* odd that beastlords, as hybrids, get fewer stances than other spellcasting hybrids though. What would they get?
 
5 is by far the best and my most used style with 4. 6 is situational and 7 is fairly worthless.
I still would rather have relics than a tanking style.
 
Allielyn said:
I'm just chiming in here to say that I use styles 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 fairly regularly - if situationally at times. The only one I don't use very often is 2 (aggressive stance) because if I want to do a lil more dps I just use 4. So I'm confused by you guys saying these stances are worthless or you never use them, because that has not been my experience at all.

Bards are an odd class, but yes, I'd categorize them as casters and I wouldn't mind if they kept their current stance setup (*cough* could use an archaic though *cough*).

It *is* odd that beastlords, as hybrids, get fewer stances than other spellcasting hybrids though. What would they get?
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I don't know any beastlord that would use any style other than /s 7 once they get to level 65. It has been proven that /s 4 is practically worthless and all else seem to be nothing. /s 5 will actually lower dps at times due to it's nerf. :(

Honestly, in terms of beastlords I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of dps increase style similar to a monk one. Double damage or ish. Just an example
 
ryutakin said:
I don't know any beastlord that would use any style other than /s 7 once they get to level 65. It has been proven that /s 4 is practically worthless and all else seem to be nothing. /s 5 will actually lower dps at times due to it's nerf. :(

Honestly, in terms of beastlords I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of dps increase style similar to a monk one. Double damage or ish. Just an example
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agreed, all i use on my BST are 2/7 for the most part. maybe 6 vs a nasty caster, and basically use 5+frenzy AA whenever ench does the melee curse...though i didnt know it migh tlower my dps, never parsed it

. Casters get no non-basic styles because they get lots of spells and relics and archaics. Beastlords get a little less than hybrids because the are a little more spell focused (at least with their pet spells). Bards get less because they have Relic spells and already have more varieties of utility with their songs than any other melee class has with both spells and styles combined.
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relic pet for bsts! hehehe
 
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