Moraelintz
Dalayan Elder
I agree with dps not being able to crit makes these stupid hard to kill.
6man/12man changes
- Thread starter Xoranath
- Start date
Nwaij
Dalayan Pious Diety
Rohk is a traitor to ******, and considering what ****** is, and the things surrounding Rohk, I'd go with lesser elemental (maybe planar elemental, depending on wich position Rohk had before turning coat...)
Moraelintz
Dalayan Elder
For rohk I would go either lesser, greater, or planar elemental.
Obscenitor
Dalayan Elder
I didn't say it wasn't possible. What I said was it is much much easier to use 2 healers as it allows for margin of error on the part of the healer. Not to mention if the healer gets picked as the Maelstrom target you are going to be required to blow valuable cool downs that would be much better spent sub 30. The only time FWF ever reverted to using 1 healer was when we as a whole outgeared the fight. Even then, if one person misses a group heal at any point they would still die.
Regardless, I would hate for any of the mechanics of the fight to be changed, but could see the HPs being bumped down slightly if DPS levels are to remain the same.
Vitali
Dalayan Master
Solo healing 4.3 is terrible and stressful, and you are always blamed on a wipe (which happens alot when camping it for 12 hours). Paladin makes the fight loads easier (I know its not the point of this thread). Point being, 2 healers is ideal... Why we insisted on doing it that way is beyond me anymore (mostly since I havent played in a couple months). IIRC we had some weird DPS issues.
All of this +1
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cian2
Dalayan Master
you can blame me for all the solo healing business. it's always a bad idea. i am an egomaniac, sorry.
also, bane & bodytype changes destroyed the already finely tuned balance of high tier 6 mans. however, it did accidentally create the most challenging fight to heal in the game: curator. if i was still playing, other clerics would have to solo heal that fight to earn my respect. that's the only fight in a long time where we wipe and i said "cotb is down, we might as well just log for 22 hours" to a group of six #1's, on a t12 fight
also, bane & bodytype changes destroyed the already finely tuned balance of high tier 6 mans. however, it did accidentally create the most challenging fight to heal in the game: curator. if i was still playing, other clerics would have to solo heal that fight to earn my respect. that's the only fight in a long time where we wipe and i said "cotb is down, we might as well just log for 22 hours" to a group of six #1's, on a t12 fight
Vitali
Dalayan Master
Basically how 4.3 was for us. We could get monster to 3% without CotB (after already blowing it) for hours, then just leave. Just finally decided after our best attempt and CotB was down, call it and move on.
I feel like it's a trend for Clerics, or healers in general. When I heard someone could solo heal something I either never tried or couldn't before, I had to do it as well only better. Apros solo healing our first victory with 4.3 while I was at a class on Vitali stung for awhile.
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For the belated record: was spurred by that (whatever it was -- don't bother reminding me), but I figured 1) if you can do the content, that should be enough, and 2) making access to a 6/12-man zone hinge on 18-man content didn't make a lot of sense in the first place (not to mention the two zones being completely unrelated).
Was going to put a critique of the concept of keying here but I feel stupid thinking about this stuff anymore.
Moraelintz
Dalayan Elder
Has a dev or GM looked into Rohk's bodytype?
After playing the cleric again on 4.3 with 2 healers (jarh aka druid) I still think having the extra dps and a paladin is just about the same difficulty, while Bango is correct if you miss 1 heal the group is going to die, I always found there was overhealing in a lot of situations as well, and missing say an extra 800-1000 dps just makes the fight that much longer. I do agree though its a lot of pressure to put on one person.
As for 6mans as a whole, Rohk and 4.3 are massively strong right now, and require t12 toons with maxed out everything (atleast 40-50+ tomes, alot of our group is 70+) and I am not sure that was the intention when all of the bane changes happened. Hopefully this will be looked into soon and some sort of middle ground will be found.
Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
Middle ground with regards to the bane/bodytype situation means stacking casters is still superior to bringing melee, no thanks.
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Thats what I am saying and completely agree, Having to stack casters to win high end fights is absolutely ridiculous. and hopefully something can be done.
cian2
Dalayan Master
I don't disagree with you. Paladins are exceptionally strong on 6 mans, being able to keep the group hotted for an entire fight ends up being a huge amount of healing done. Praising paladins doesn't really fit the current agenda though. I've always been a paladin sympathizer.
I know I said solo healing is a bad idea, but in the case of 4.3, it actually was an idea born of necessity. It was a time when a lot of our high dps were missing, ie. lleoc, solosolki and we needed more dps to get through 30% - 0%. Also, improving the groups dps is the only real way to improve healing effectiveness. There's only so much you can gain from being perfectly efficient, but even adding 200 group dps in a 6 man gives you a TON more breathing room healing wise. So really, with a pal+clr you add some healing slack with the pally hot + dmg reduction, and then even more with the added dps, making it your best chance to win on a fight where healer mana is a bottleneck. Of course, this is all assuming you have a cleric competent enough to handle it, and a group smart enough to operate within more constricted rules of staying alive
Daffie
Dalayan Pious Diety
I don't have high end 6 max xp, but just commenting on the logic behind your post: Wouldn't a warrior or an SK tank significantly increase healing effectiveness from their increased mitigation and increased DPS? Does the DPS increase cancel out the mana savings from having pally runic1 up all the time?
Moraelintz
Dalayan Elder
The mitigation differerence on 6 mans between sk and pal is laughable. Also, there is a much bigger dps difference between 1 dps and the differential between sk and pal but war dps can be significant.
I've done almost all of my on tier 6 man kills up to Tier 10 with a paladin in my group. We usually run SK (me), paladin, bard, cleric/druid, shaman, +1 dps on the majority of our kills mainly because of the group has been together for a long time. We usually have the paladin pop in a two-hander, aux, pick up adds and do runic 1s the whole fight.
Now it seems we have to change group make up a bit for the next tier stuff (Claw Commander, MT), but for us having a paladin around for Fae Queen, Oracle, 8th Arm, Terror Speaker X, anything in Eflow up to MK, and Reborn Malath worked out very well. So throw me on the band wagon for having paladins around, especially for learning a fight.
Cambrai
Now it seems we have to change group make up a bit for the next tier stuff (Claw Commander, MT), but for us having a paladin around for Fae Queen, Oracle, 8th Arm, Terror Speaker X, anything in Eflow up to MK, and Reborn Malath worked out very well. So throw me on the band wagon for having paladins around, especially for learning a fight.
Cambrai
cian2
Dalayan Master
Warriors take the least amount of damage per hit, but throughout a fight they require more actual healing due to the fact that they don't heal themselves for nearly as much as a paladin or SK. They do a pretty substantial amount of dps, but in terms of overall effectiveness (group HPS + group DPS) it's still dramatically better to have a paladin. If group HP/S is less of a factor on a given fight, then yeah, warrior/cleric + 4 dps. It all depends on the bottleneck of that particular fight.
In terms of tanking ability, I consider PAL/SHD to be exact equals, shadowknights requiring less healing due to the fact that they can lifetap for an absurd amount, but on the fight in question (4.3) tank damage is not a big issue - but group AE damage is, and is therefore the perfect situation for paladin hots to shine, as they both heal very efficiently and in the case of runic hot, reduce the damage taken by the group.
that's not to say you can't solo heal it with an SK or warrior, I was more speaking in terms of if your guild/group was in a position where you needed to absolutely maximize your effectiveness, pal/clr is the way to go, in my opinion.
Vitali
Dalayan Master
While solo healing, you're right in this. The AoE dmg during this is a big pill to swallow, but once everyone learns they can't take avoidable dmg and expect to get healed things start to come together. Unavoidable group dmg can all but be healed by Cleric splash healing from class tomes (Big Heals on Paladin) + Paladin HoTs.
We tried other combos and it was harder by far (single heal + Warrior, like whoa) and it was just terrible. I would have to whole heartedly agree, Pal + Cleric is the way to maximize effectiveness.
[Obviously I am not directing this at you, as you've killed 4.3 far more then me or CW. Just general statement]