4.3 Loot balancing!

Yusuke

Dalayan Adventurer
Comparing classes isn't accurate, but when you look at what they're doing during an encounter and go "What's the difference?" it means comparing classes should be something to consider.
Tev, I am just curious if you intentionally neglected to bring up mages here or simply forgot?

Some times I feel like I am the only one that thinks mages are screwed in more ways than one and over a tier above other classes. There are maybe a handful of fights or trash clears where it's okay to actually dps as a mage should be able to. Other than that it's..hey, no rains we are mezzing, hey, best not rain we are pulling them close in, oh, did I mention the adds repop if they are hit? Don't rain. This, that, and the other 99% can't be rained on or the pet dies quickly or the mob dies quickly. The swarm is useless and usually a throw away. If mages are allowed to go all out their dps is fine but how often does that happen?

Sure this thread is for 4.3 loot balancing and I'm glad sod is getting some attention but before you introduce new content can you please pay close attention to what makes a class unique and implement mechanics that have them be involved in your new content.
 

Tevinter

Dalayan Pious Diety
Tev, I am just curious if you intentionally neglected to bring up mages here or simply forgot?

Some times I feel like I am the only one that thinks mages are screwed in more ways than one and over a tier above other classes. There are maybe a handful of fights or trash clears where it's okay to actually dps as a mage should be able to. Other than that it's..hey, no rains we are mezzing, hey, best not rain we are pulling them close in, oh, did I mention the adds repop if they are hit? Don't rain. This, that, and the other 99% can't be rained on or the pet dies quickly or the mob dies quickly. The swarm is useless and usually a throw away. If mages are allowed to go all out their dps is fine but how often does that happen?

Sure this thread is for 4.3 loot balancing and I'm glad sod is getting some attention but before you introduce new content can you please pay close attention to what makes a class unique and implement mechanics that have them be involved in your new content.
I don't understand how my post relates to mages in particular at all. I just used necro and wizard as an example comparison.
 

DodoBot

Dalayan Elder
Razikol, Vessel of the Void
Primary
215 DMG | 75 Delay 2hb
Focus Effect: CE3
Hidden Effect: Lose 25% Mana on Equip
25% Proc: Gift of the Old Ones.
+500 HP | +425 Mana
+30 STR/DEX | +50 AGI
-10svAll
5% Critical Strike. -5% Mind Shield. -10% spell ward.
Skill Mod: Double Attack +3
Identify Lore: Perfection is an illusion, there exists only sacrifice.

Gift of the Old Ones
4 tick duration self targeted detrimental
Effect 1: Increase ATK by 150
Effect 2: Increase Melee haste v2 by 40%
Effect 3: Decrease Current mana by 15 per tick
Effect 4: Decrease current mana by 5
Effect 5: Reduce Spell Damage done by 15%
Cast on You: Your mind clouds as your limbs move with uncanny speed.
I like the idea of giving enchanters additional utility during times where there are inadequate SB/AOD targets, I'm just not sure adding a single niche item to one contentious encounter is the way to do it! Tev had mentioned that this idea probably needs its own thread, and I am inclined to agree. That being said, his item does sound potentially interesting, and I have a few specific points I'd like to add here.

1) Is there a reason for negative resist all adjustment here? To me, it seems like this is perhaps not in line with the spirit of the item, and I'm not sure I'd want to do a ton of negative resistances, especially when you're going to be meleeing (and Bane of the Fallen God has +15/all and +5/in 2hs and 1hs, respectively). Perhaps a negative resist adjust to magic, with bonuses to the other resists or a larger boost to disease and poison might be more fitting with the tone I see with this item.
2) Would bane damage be something nice to add to this? How does bane currently function with a somatic bond setup? I am assuming bane would work for the enchanter in this case, because it is his melee damage, but would adding a bane to this cause balance problems if it transferred to SB damage as well? More curiosity than anything on this one.
3) What are the pros and cons of adding a new item like this vs. simply adding Enc to The Soul-Shephard?
4) How should this compete tier-wise vs. meleeing with other popular enchanter melee setups? (Ex: Verdict, Spire of Destruction, Existing 4.3 Sword, Sphere of the Prime Enchanter - these are all 2 handers... this is a 1-hander, so what about 1-handed setups that might be OK for melee? I can think of Wand of the High Researcher and Will of the Mother, but I know there have got to be others that I'm missing). If you want to approach SB self dps \ through itemization, how should this item (and other potential melee weapons that might get altered in this case) be tuned with respect to DPS, stats, and other utility?
5) What happens to existing swords on enchanters if this is changed? Do they just go in the trash can, or would there be a means to perhaps quest in an exchange? The same would presumably apply for other people with weapon changes.
 

Draeos

Dalayan Elder
As for the robe nerf, it needs it but just keep in mind keeping it useful for everyone who's spent the time to get one. It would be extremely disheartening for it to end up useless to me (and others) if the robe I spent uncountable hours farming for(back when it was actually rare) suddenly became useless and I had to go back to runeward or envia.

Maybe up the offense mod to keep melees happy, add a desired focus effect, maybe s neat proc, definitely give it a stat boost, maybe a clicke for the current effect and replace it with real ac.

Just please please keep it relevant for everyone since so many people sunk so many hours/days/weeks getting this item.
 

Yusuke

Dalayan Adventurer
I suppose I shouldn't be contributing to this thread when I'm busy with work and can't get my thoughts across succinctly. This will be the last post for this thread.

The post I quoted and the one above it that you wrote were every bit as relevant towards my class that I have mained for years and find it to be lacking in comparison to the rest, hence, no mention of it, heh. By the way, none of this is directed towards you, you made valid points, and I assumed you would be able to pick up the connection between my post and yours. Take my posts as a plug for bringing attention to mages and my selfishness while I share my opinion of what needs to be addressed before the rest. Class balance > Gear balance. Gear has become a long standing tradition for fixing balance issues with SoD and then every so often we have nerfs and gear/combat system overhauling because we used the band-aid to cover up where a surgery was needed instead.

Gear should add the fun factor and an extra helping of flavor to the game. It shouldn't define a character's progression to the extent that it becomes the sole requirement for further developing the character and moving up the tiers as some have alluded to. I can't imagine what it would be like to farm for a 4.3 robe before the next tier because you can't survive without it. Jyre sounds even better. I can't wait to see the back farming and getting new players caught up to this approach. It sounds absurd. The drop rate would have to be adjusted drastically for it to be viable. At that point you have lost the prestige of the item for it to matter if it's OP or not, everyone has it. Besides, the tiers above will take in to account the specialty items as a baseline for hit points, resists, damage output. Who cares at that point if you have a 4.3 robe or Rabb the Rat's loot when the raid boss has been tuned for it.

The following are just random observations of the game balance at work. I still see end game Knights using Nautilus with a shield that's really good for the tier it's gotten in. Warriors depend on the scythe, it has changed the game for them. Clerics are perhaps too good at healing, no one complains about this - I don't either. Shamans are terrible as group healers so it would make sense that their slows help mitigate a lot of damage to compensate but that isn't the case. A same tier druid and shaman combined should be able to heal a warrior tank as the same tier cleric if not better. Yet, the under tier cleric is easily able to do this and the druid/shaman have to be better geared/exped/ and possibly more skilled to achieve the same. Is this balance? Shaman healing mechanic on 4.3 is balance? Why couldn't a shaman just slow the boss enough to where the paladin and shaman can heal it just fine on tier. Druid hots are nothing special, their single heals are lackluster and group heals are slow. This is balance? I could be wrong but can a druid alone contribute the only heals to an on tier fight and win in 6 man content where the tank is also on tier?

Perhaps I am unable to convey my thought process to everyone so I'll just ask a simple question. The new content for which this loot balancing is taking place, is that new content balanced around all the classes or just the select 3 or 5? The content to this day has not been. If it's the same old same old, can we all have the option to magically change classes to those 3 or 5 chosen ones and all be happy. Lift the 3 per class limit on raids as well.

Man, I sound bitter for someone who stopped playing/raiding over a year ago. Bye.
 

tinkaa

*fake Tinkerbell*
Tev, I am just curious if you intentionally neglected to bring up mages here or simply forgot?

Some times I feel like I am the only one that thinks mages are screwed in more ways than one and over a tier above other classes. There are maybe a handful of fights or trash clears where it's okay to actually dps as a mage should be able to. Other than that it's..hey, no rains we are mezzing, hey, best not rain we are pulling them close in, oh, did I mention the adds repop if they are hit? Don't rain. This, that, and the other 99% can't be rained on or the pet dies quickly or the mob dies quickly. The swarm is useless and usually a throw away. If mages are allowed to go all out their dps is fine but how often does that happen?

Sure this thread is for 4.3 loot balancing and I'm glad sod is getting some attention but before you introduce new content can you please pay close attention to what makes a class unique and implement mechanics that have them be involved in your new content.
I agree with you, mages have good potential but get screwed out because of fight mechanics. However, make a thread about balancing them because very few people play them (including one dev, who found them super fun).
I started writing one many times before but I always fall short of ideas that wouldn't just make them weaker wizards with pets. Maybe if there was a stance that could toggle between your rains hitting as rains, or they doing all the damage they do on one target in one wave, so basically concentrated into a nuke. Could be a bit weaker so rains would still be preferred choice (they definitely would be when you wanted to dps more than one target, and with class tomes your rains crit more than nukes anyway, so there is some tradeoff already, at least once you get to that tier).
However, this is a post about 4.3, please stick to the topic and make a new thread with suggestions about mages.



Enchanters could probably petition for the new weapon if they were left with one they can't use anymore.

I don't have verdict, but on Grimstump the weapons I have on Aishii with all 4 tomes done and SB+Boon are in this hierarchy:

bare fists + IM gloves: ~400 dps
current 2hs Bane ~350 dps
Spire ~300 dps
Laraek ~250 dps

I'd say this is pretty lackluster considering you need to spend mana and do very little else to get these numbers with these weapons. Clerics are more dps, and can just melee and proc heals at same time. However I think that enchanter meleeing shouldn't be a lot more dps than if they boon+sb a melee character of comparable tier, which is probably something like 400 (I've never parsed just one).
 

Xoranath

Dalayan Elder
Okay folks, you wanted a hard timeframe for new content...... We are pulling back the curtain and giving you what you wish for. Dev Rymy, in conjunction with previous work done by Dev Krista, will be implementing a new zone, Forest of the Fallen, on October 28th. (yes of this year). This zone will feature new quests either concurrently with/or from Refuge and have encounters in the t10-12 range. Please, do not bug Dev Rymy about this, let him do his work. I will be posting this in game in the MotD and you may see it in patch notes and/or the news section on the website. Enjoy.
 

Binsin

Dalayan Elder
Okay folks, you wanted a hard timeframe for new content...... We are pulling back the curtain and giving you what you wish for. Dev Rymy, in conjunction with previous work done by Dev Krista, will be implementing a new zone, Forest of the Fallen, on October 28th. (yes of this year). This zone will feature new quests either concurrently with/or from Refuge and have encounters in the t10-12 range. Please, do not bug Dev Rymy about this, let him do his work. I will be posting this in game in the MotD and you may see it in patch notes and/or the news section on the website. Enjoy.
*EXCITEMENT INTENSIFIES*
 

Nebi

Dalayan Pious Diety
Okay folks, you wanted a hard timeframe for new content...... We are pulling back the curtain and giving you what you wish for. Dev Rymy, in conjunction with previous work done by Dev Krista, will be implementing a new zone, Forest of the Fallen, on October 28th. (yes of this year). This zone will feature new quests either concurrently with/or from Refuge and have encounters in the t10-12 range. Please, do not bug Dev Rymy about this, let him do his work. I will be posting this in game in the MotD and you may see it in patch notes and/or the news section on the website. Enjoy.
I have been summoned to this zone and can say @Quila did a heck of a job.
 

Jaec

Dalayan Adventurer
Horok, Reality's Kaleidoscope (The proc name makes more since for the weapon, give it a more badass graphic)
Slot: Primary Secondary
Skill: 1H Blunt Atk Delay: 27
DMG: 30 AC: 20
Magic DMG: 2
Effect: Shatter Reality (Melee Proc, 9.4%)
Skill Mod: Riposte +5
STR: +25 STA: +25 CHA: +25 HP: +225
SV FIRE:
+10 SV DISEASE: +10 SV COLD: +10 SV MAGIC: +10 SV POISON: +10
WT: 0.0 Size: Small
Class: MNK
Race: ALL

Keep Shatter Reality the same
Change Shattered Recourse
Increase Hit Points by 125 per tick
Increase Discipline by X per tick
Gotta say, i do like the look of it. IDK if the increase of Discipline is strong, and I would definitely like to be in on that testing! On a side note though, if all you changed was the proc back, I would be perfectly fine with this wep.
 

Tevinter

Dalayan Pious Diety
I like the idea of giving enchanters additional utility during times where there are inadequate SB/AOD targets, I'm just not sure adding a single niche item to one contentious encounter is the way to do it! Tev had mentioned that this idea probably needs its own thread, and I am inclined to agree. That being said, his item does sound potentially interesting, and I have a few specific points I'd like to add here.

1) Is there a reason for negative resist all adjustment here? To me, it seems like this is perhaps not in line with the spirit of the item, and I'm not sure I'd want to do a ton of negative resistances, especially when you're going to be meleeing (and Bane of the Fallen God has +15/all and +5/in 2hs and 1hs, respectively). Perhaps a negative resist adjust to magic, with bonuses to the other resists or a larger boost to disease and poison might be more fitting with the tone I see with this item.
4) How should this compete tier-wise vs. meleeing with other popular enchanter melee setups? (Ex: Verdict, Spire of Destruction, Existing 4.3 Sword, Sphere of the Prime Enchanter - these are all 2 handers... this is a 1-hander, so what about 1-handed setups that might be OK for melee? I can think of Wand of the High Researcher and Will of the Mother, but I know there have got to be others that I'm missing). If you want to approach SB self dps \ through itemization, how should this item (and other potential melee weapons that might get altered in this case) be tuned with respect to DPS, stats, and other utility?
I honestly can't even remember the last time I've thought about resistances on any character I've played in the past few years at all. I didn't realize people even cared about resistances at 4.3 tier because they aren't really used for anything. It was entirely a flair thing. I also underestimated how much people cared about the stats on something designed to be used as a weapon. I might be be weird in the sense that I don't really care much about most stats on the items I use for weapons at all, especially after the 2.5 HP boost. You could In regards to how it should compete, it should probably be the best enchanter weapon that isn't verdict given its pretty significant downsides. I agree entirely that this is a crutch item because enchanters of the fundamental design issues with how enchanters deal damage/scale their damage (hey this sounds really familiar to another class). Adding a crutch item thats a guaranteed drop from an encounter is much easier than changing every single enchanter weapon from the ground up.

I did some parsing on grimstump and was pretty surprised with the results. Verdict only parsed around 640~ dps from the front over the course of a 446s fight. I ended the log because that was when I hit about 10% mana. Over the course of the fight I drained 4625 mana from myself and did 37k self inflicted damage. If I was attacking the mob from behind, I'd do 735~ dps. I don't know how much DPS I lose from being auxed by the mob hitting me. If I didn't boon myself, I'd do around 510dps from the front, 581 from behind. 55.4% of my damage was melee, the remainder was procs from boon/bond/verdict. With a bard or beastlord you'd sit at around 820-850ish dps in an exp group setting if you did nothing but melee and boon/bond yourself. I think 1k+ is obtainable in a raid setting if you just tunnelvision melee, but in a raid setting you'd just be blasting AoD anyways.

That being said, after more feedback and some parsing done myself, I present Razikol v3.0. Its hard to really pinpoint whats too strong or weak on a theoretical weapon without being able to parse it myself. Lots of high tier weapons had to be tweaked and tuned many times over after several people used them in different environments to land in their final state. With the devs as active as they are now its much easier to go "hey we think this new item is below where it should be" and get the item tuned compared to how it was in the past.

Razikol, Vessel of the Void
Primary
225 DMG | 75 Delay 1hb
Focus Effect: CE4
Hidden Effect: Lose 25% Mana on Equip
100% Proc: Gift of the Old Ones.
+225 HP | +285 Mana | 35 AC
+30 STR/DEX/STA | +50 AGI
-1 svAll
5% Critical Strike. -5% Mind Shield. -5% spell ward. -2 Aggro
Skill Mod: Double Attack +10
Identify Lore: Perfection is an illusion, there exists only sacrifice.

Gift of the Old Ones
4 tick duration self targeted detrimental
Effect 1: Increase ATK by 650
Effect 2: Increase Melee haste v2 by 50%
Effect 3: Decrease Current mana by 10 per tick
Effect 4: Reduce Spell Damage done by 15%
Cast on You: Your mind clouds as your limbs move with uncanny speed.
 

Apros

Dalayan Elder
I'm with sabuti here...

Not sure why an item should get nerfed if nothing from the new content should be better than it.

We all play this game to have fun, and at this current time it would not increase the fun to do any of these changes except maybe this enchanter thing.

Not trying to harp on people's hard work, but I thought the intention of the nerf was to itemize for the future content. unfortunately what you just said, to me anyway, is that content is not yet ready.

All this being said, The robe probably does need a slight reduction, but I don't think that should be rushed into at this time if no progression content is being added. (One good weekend comes to mind).
The question really is, what do you guys (the devs) think is the realistic stats that you would make this item. Or maybe you guys are looking for some good fair suggestions on what to make this item?

I wrote this on my phone sorry if my typing is bad.
 

Apros

Dalayan Elder
Also something I wanted to mention but always forget.

Make all of the next tier items xpable, this will make people actually want to play the game again to make groups and kill monsters instead of just logging in to raid / 6man.
 

Swight

Dalayan Adventurer
Not sure if xpable items would help that situation much or not some of the people that do that just loan their toons out to get tome xp I imagine xpable items wouldn't be much different.
 

Apros

Dalayan Elder
Not sure if xpable items would help that situation much or not some of the people that do that just loan their toons out to get tome xp I imagine xpable items wouldn't be much different.
Sadly you are probably right, but I think it might give a slight bit more incentive which is better than none.
 

Kapitol K

Dalayan Elder
Not sure why an item should get nerfed if nothing from the new content should be better than it.
My guess is forest of the fallen is going to drop a bp or bps that are probably 90-100ac + some good proc and it doesn't even come close to the 450 ac we have all been using as crutches.

They dont want to bite the bullet and just put 455 ac on the new bp and I dont blame them, but its completely their fault for not nerfing the spell ac in 2012 when they nerfed the movespeed and casting speed off of it.

Sometimes incompetence is useful, it helps you keep an open mind.
 

Apros

Dalayan Elder
My guess is forest of the fallen is going to drop a bp or bps that are probably 90-100ac + some good proc and it doesn't even come close to the 450 ac we have all been using as crutches.

They dont want to bite the bullet and just put 455 ac on the new bp and I dont blame them, but its completely their fault for not nerfing the spell ac in 2012 when they nerfed the movespeed and casting speed off of it.

Sometimes incompetence is useful, it helps you keep an open mind.
Sure, understandable. But there are already several other t10-12 BPS out there, and we know this one is better than the others. If we are just going to keep getting T12 loot, well then that new loot will be the overpowered loot. (granted maybe not as OP)

Like I said, I get it that it needs a bit of a toning if someone planned on expanding the game beyond it's current levels, and it would make things fresh. I love you guys for working on this game, but why not try to go higher and make it a t13-14+ zone. I have felt for a long time that's what the game has needed and I know I'm not alone. But if we are going to just get dulled into mediocrity over and over, then why remove the one of very few god loots that exist in the game. I just wish it was still as rare as it used to be.
 

Airek

Dalayan Adventurer
After reaching "T13" why do I even want to come back to a game where the newest content release after 5 years is T10-T12? Are there other new zones with higher tier content soon to be released?
To quote myself in a different channel:

Mudflation is a thing
New content is a tier below the highest content
Aka let's love being no better than we are now + nerfs
I'd play new content on alts but to try to keep my main close to (current) on tier is a joke
Also let's nerf bards and re-balance enchanters to keep them where they are (according to current discussions)
Also forget everyone else
Oh yeah, forget mages are even a class
 
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