Wrong of Way

[donfolstar3]

From the Policy Plaza thread "Raid Encounter and 6 Man Content Rules"
it appears that someone changed:

Right of Way-

To claim a wing/zone/encounter, you need 6 people present and be actively killing. Once you have begun clearing, if you stop and there is a dispute, you have 30 minutes to resume killing or you can lose your claim. If you enter a wing/zone/encounter and you DO NOT kill anything, YOU DO NOT have claim.

and that it was done by a ghost:

Last edit – 11/18/15 - Change in Bloodfires/Rohk policy

Last edited by a moderator: Thursday [11/26/15] at 2:52 AM"

Now I am not going to start tinfoiling about how this came on the heels of a claim dispute and who is in what guild because there are some problems here beyond that. Namely:

1. This change was done quieter than a ninja's fart. No announcement on the mainpage, no thread to discuss the change, and no documenting the change in the thread itself. Even if this is just a clarification of the rules it sure seems shady. Stop being shady.

2. This policy is stupid. Did the person who changed this every raid before? You gotta buff and sometimes when you zone raids get broken so you have to take time to reform. Should we be paranoid while all of that is happening? Inversely, if my raid zones in and nothing has been killed then running past that other raid to zerg something ASAP is following the rules? Really? What about zones where wiping on the first pull is a real possibility (Temple of Eleal, Sanctum, sometimes spires trash is buggy, etc...)? It just seems like this will must kill idea will butt heads with raid stalking and be trouble.

3. How about an ingame fix instead of more arbitrary and unclear rules posted on the forums? Specifically, how about putting a mob at the entrance to zones/wings that through a prompt or combat establishes claims through a completely incontrovertible method. Here are two ideas that may or may not work, but at least everyone would know what rules they were playing by:

Friendly Mob of Claiming [name needs work]
Hail FMoC and FMoC does something similar to ToT porting system when it counts flags to offer or deny porting rights. If FMoC counts 6 or more lvl 65 characters it offers a prompt which makes a log record of the claim and will inform the next person to hail it exactly when that claim was established and by whom. No room for arguing or GM interpretation or any other crap- FMoC clearly states that Sir Dyldo of the guild Fanny Packs established this claim 26 minutes ago so they have 4 minutes to kill something.

Mean Mob of Claiming [name is absolute perfection]
MMoC sits at the entrance to wings/zones and is green, nonagressive, melees for almost nothing, has golem raid trash hps, and does an AoE for:
(6 - [# of people on aggro list]) * 1,000,000 unresistable damage every two ticks
Killing MMoC establishes a claim. If you want to take your four friends into a zone to kill under tier stuff that is fine, but you either cannot establish a claim or you need to drag some newbs to work (which you should be doing for rots anyway you monster).​

FAQ
Q: I don't like this idea because it requires dev work!
A: That isn't a question, but I think in the long run it would require far less staff time to fix things once instead of consistently intervening.

Q: I don't like this idea because change is bad!
A: That also isn't a question, but since this is a change of a change I think you just vanished in a puff of logic so no worries.

Q: How dare you question authority!
A: Still not a question... which is weird because you seem to know what it means to question. Hey man, I'm fine with rules, but I like my rules transparent and objective ESPECIALLY when vested interests abound.

Q: Why?
A: Why not?

 

[ynnear]

in reference of your Right of way, i can only think of a unique group of people who would exploit this. now the rest of us have common curtisoy so the douche bag rule doesn't effect us. Its common to see oh man they got 18 in spires well looks somewhere else. and besides how would any other raid force know when you started or stopped to fight you on claim? this is impossible for them to know it becomes here say and staff will favor the force that was here first killing.

I dont think you have anything to worry about. but if certain unique groups did decide to challenge this do you really think the staff would take their side? you were there first, you are killing it is your zone until you all leave (not from wiping)

 

[Nwaij]

We could have worded this as something in the lines of this:
"Hey don't be a scummy douche and sit in a zone with 6 for an hour, pretending you are raiding and claiming the zone! Also NO, killing greencons or laughable mobs (looking at you, murdered slaves in spires!) does not help your cause. Kill some real trash if you want claim!"
Instead we left the swearwords out, because they really shouldn't be in a policy post. But yeah, intention should be clear.

 

[Masuriya]

Like trap mobs in sanctum?

 

[Tevinter]

We could have worded this as something in the lines of this:
"Hey don't be a scummy douche and sit in a zone with 6 for an hour, pretending you are raiding and claiming the zone! Also NO, killing greencons or laughable mobs (looking at you, murdered slaves in spires!) does not help your cause. Kill some real trash if you want claim!"
Instead we left the swearwords out, because they really shouldn't be in a policy post. But yeah, intention should be clear.

so if somebody is squatting with 6 and i roll in with a raid of 18 i can just swoop in and take the zone? What if its an 18 man encounter and they are squatting with 6, but i roll in with 12 that are capable of slaying the mobs? Or is squatting still legal, but you have to kill actual trash mobs (and not the trap mobs in sanctum, which can literally be soloed while the 5 other people AFK).

 

[ynnear]

so if somebody is squatting with 6 and i roll in with a raid of 18 i can just swoop in and take the zone? What if its an 18 man encounter and they are squatting with 6, but i roll in with 12 that are capable of slaying the mobs? Or is squatting still legal, but you have to kill actual trash mobs (and not the trap mobs in sanctum, which can literally be soloed while the 5 other people AFK).

you said "12 that are Capable of slaying the mobs"

The key here is to get rid of squatting but if you use 12 and a team of 18 come in your claim would be forfeit by your own standards

 

[TheSkos]

Now I am not going to start tinfoiling about how this came on the heels of a claim dispute and who is in what guild because there are some problems here beyond that.

Yeah, you are tinfoiling.

1. This change was done quieter than a ninja's fart.

What Change? The Rule itself did not change and has been the same for many many many years. As far as I am aware of it's been unchanged since WR. Only the wording of the rule changed for clarification. If you misunderstood the words and the meaning's that is no fault but your teachers for failing to teach comprehensive reading and critical thinking. We don't have the time or patience to look at all the rules and go over every possible violation of the rules and word them so they are perfect for everybody. Or spend a bunch of time having dev's code a bunch of shit just so it FORCES you to stop being bad. Expecting us to set forth a set of rules so perfect, enlightening, and iron clad that it could be chiseled into stone and be the 11th commandment is an unrealistic expectation.

2. This policy is stupid. Did the person who changed this every raid before? You gotta buff and sometimes when you zone raids get broken so you have to take time to reform.

A policy since WR is stupid.... A working policy at that. Maybe you should stamp your feet a little. Yes you have to buff. But in this situation where you were forming in zone over an hour and half before your raid time to snipe a zone. to do that you have to meet enough criteria that you arent squatting but have claim of the zone. You had 8 in zone barely. 11 online. And hadn't killed a single thing and people were LFG. I remember many times sitting in disputed zones during the early days of raiding when legacy/exo/forsaken/venerate/aeternus/numinous/ruin were around. Same rules since all of those disputes YEARS ago. You just claimed a zone badly because you obviously were either bad or didn't know. So I guess changing the wording of the rule to clarify it for you should be beneficial! Now you know what to do just like we did!

How about an ingame fix instead of more arbitrary and unclear rules posted on the forums?

There would be no need of this if people even read or bothered to follow the rules/spirit of the rule/intent of the rule. This is getting to the point of having to put child protection lids and locks on everything. I'm almost certain everybody knows and understands the intent and spirit of the rules and follows them fine and has never been a problem until recently when people want to use this excuse of "IT'S NOT MY FAULT, YOUR RULES AREN'T PERFECT!" If you don't like the rules then go make your own server with your own rules and then police those rules when people start finding ways around them and claiming stupidity and blaming the rule for not being perfect (Even though the person is just being bad and trying to find an excuse and way out) then you will understand the frustration of having to make rules for every tiny little itty bitty thing someone gets butthurt over. Following the rules isn't hard and thousands of people haven't had a problem. Maybe it's just you.

so if somebody is squatting with 6 and i roll in with a raid of 18 i can just swoop in and take the zone? What if its an 18 man encounter and they are squatting with 6, but i roll in with 12 that are capable of slaying the mobs? Or is squatting still legal, but you have to kill actual trash mobs (and not the trap mobs in sanctum, which can literally be soloed while the 5 other people AFK).

Will base this off of 18 man only.

To be squatting those 6 that are in the zone have to have killed nothing in 30 mins. Sitting doing nothing for 30 mins. You have to be progressiving clearing or doing the content. I don't know whats hard to figure out about squatting. You also have to put in a dispute claim petition when you zone in and kill a mob for dispute and then wait for a GM response. Most of the time this is why there are no disputes it's a waste of time. You see people there you go elsewhere. The problem is squatters not the rules.

Criteria for claiming a zone. (for 18 man)
1) 6 Characters in zone.
2) A mob been killed. (Trap mobs, charmable mobs or mobs not associated with the clear or non-kos mobs DO NOT COUNT) Plainly obvious but strangely needs clarification.

At this point you have claim for 30 minutes to buff / get people there / form raid groups and continue clearing. If you cannot do this then you can be disputed for a claim.

When racing another guild for a zone claim or to dispute a zone claim this final criteria is considered.
3) Viable Force. You can Claim with 6 but that does not mean you can do the boss with that many. If you surpass your 30 minutes of allocated time and fail to produce a viable force for the encounter or trash you will give up the zone.

So when claiming a zone you want.
1) At least 6 Characters in zone.
2) A progression mob has been killed. (Does not include pet mobs, trap trash, or non-kos shit unless otherwise specified. You have to kill zone progressing trash.)
3) Viable Force within 30 mins of initial claim. Must meet first 2 criteria. If you fail to meet this criteria you forfeit the zone.

If you are butt hurt about the rules please send videos of you stamping your feet and throwing a fit to: [email protected]

 

[Taryth]

The raid language is clear. You need 6. You need to ACTIVELY clear trash within 30 mins. Trash needs to be real trash, no trap mobs, no frogs in spires, actual clearing mobs. So you have 30 mins from when you have your 6 to start clearing. If the time expires and there is a dispute, next there with force wins. I'm not a GM, and even I know that.