Wizard / Enchanter NPCs

L

lacus

Dalayan Beginner
Hello, I'm writing this thread to suggest that something be done about wizard and enchanter NPCs. As it stands now, I think that in most zones, these characters are too powerful and don't provide the proper Risk vs. Reward. I think the following considerations are being kept in mind by the game designers and I agree with all of them, and I will make my recommendations with these assumptions in the background:

1) All MOBs should not just essentially be melee MOBs. There should be variety among MOBs and not simply just warrior MOBs and warrior MOBs who try to cast weak nukes on you sometimes. The obvious way to do this is accentuate the class differences between the MOBs. Enchanters act like enchanters, wizards act like wizards, monks act like monks.

2) Risk and reward should be balanced whenever possible.

3) XP zones, especially non-raid / low-mid level XP zones, should not require highly specialized groups in order to be done consistently and without unavoidable or nearly unavoidable death.

Now, I think that the current situation is that, while 1 has been achieved (especially with the change in today's patch allowing enchanter MOBs to charm), 2 and 3 are both lacking.

I have been in a number of Paw groups, all with competent players, and it has happened on a number of occasions that just by luck a single enchanter MOB will destroy our group or at least kill one or two members. I say by luck and I mean exactly that. If you have a group that has one melee who is both tank and puller and he pulls an enchanter MOB, someone in the group will probably die if he gets charmed or mezzed. Having very high magic resists at around lvl 35 is not really feasible and, even with a resist magic spell, it is not difficult for a MOB to land their spells.

Now, it might be objected that this situation can be solved simply by having better group planning. Instead of having just a single tank, you should have two or three melee units who can tank if necessary. This will work - though not infallibly - but this solution conflicts with 3. Given the server's playerbase, it is not possible to construct the perfect group at low-mid levels. You often have to just take what you can get. I should emphasize, also, that even having extra melees in your group will not ensure that a single enchanter MOB will not wipe out the group.

It should also be recalled that if a group successfully kills one of these creatures, the reward is no greater than the reward for killing a much easier melee MOB.

Wizard MOBs are also, though to a lesser extent, over-powered. I have recently been grouping in Mielech B and have fought a number of froglok evokers. These are, I think, about level 40 wizard NPCs. They cast powerful nukes and stuns, but these, really, are not a problem. They do a lot of damage, but it's not so much that a good healer cannot manage it. However, they also cast PBAE spells which do roughly 200-300 damage to all surrounding targets. In Mielech B, it is not easy to find places to fight that are not fairly close quarters. The result is that these wizard NPCs wind up doing several times more damage to a group than any of the other MOBs. Once again, the reward for killing one is the same as the reward for killing a simple froglok scout. We were able to overcome the difficulties of this by using a lot of stuns from our bard, but most groups that are assembled on SoD for Miel B cannot be expected to have a bard with them.

I should note that I think these abilities / stats are perfectly balanced for a named encounter. I had a good group fighting greatpaws a few days ago and we pulled The Mind Claw. It wound up mezzing a good half of our group, including the healer, and the group wound up wiping. However, since The Mind Claw drops some pretty good loot, the fight is, in my opinion, balanced. A liodreth coercer is not significantly easier than The Mind Claw, though, and drops no special loot.

Here are my suggestions for fixing this problem. These are meant as distinct options and obviously I think implementing ALL of them would be too much.

1) Tone down caster MOB hit points. If you recall, in Old Sebilis on live, the froglok wizard MOBs were some of the easiest due to their very low HP, even though they did pretty decent damage with their spells. I think the wizard MOBs there could be much more difficult and that EQLive swung in the other direction in terms of balance. However, I think that something could be learned from this. I suspect that NPC caster HP on SoD is already somewhat reduced, but I think it could use a significant reduction beyond that. This would result in groups having to "burn down" the caster NPCs quickly to avoid the wipe, meaning they would have to employ a different strategy on these MOBs than they would on simple warrior MOBs. However, this would make the fights much more doable, even with diverse groups (most classes have ways of increasing their DPS temporarily). It would, I think, bring the risk more in line with the reward.

2) Increase resistance rates against caster MOBs. As a level 42 warrior with pretty decent resists for my level - I have almost 80 with buff - I pretty much never resisted mez when fighting coercers. If I did, it was just luck. I think that increasing the ability to resist spells would have two good consequences. First, it would provide an added usefulness for the endure/resist spells. As it is now, they do not, as far as I can tell, make a noticeable difference. I always request resist magic when doing Paw and I still get mezzed pretty much consistently. Likewise, when I was in Miel B, I cast resist fire and resist cold on all of my party members with my druid and pulling wizards was still often catastrophic.

3) Increase the loot on caster NPCs. Perhaps caster NPCs could be given random drops that are nicer than the random drops on their melee NPC counterparts. I can't think of any concrete examples of what they might drop, unfortunately.

4) Decrease the melee power of caster NPCs. As it is right now, a froglok evoker will still punch me for about 70 or so. Then he'll nuke me for 450. I think in order for it to be balanced, this really needs to be one or the other. NPC casters should not be as weak as PC casters in terms of melee, obviously, but I think if they were toned down some in this regard it would be a bit more fair. Perhaps if the froglok evoker only hit for 50 points and didn't bash, say. (I apologize if evokers already do not bash.)

5) Confine caster NPCs, for the most part, to named encounters. The rationale for this is basically what was given above regarding The Mind Claw.

Thanks,

Lacus - 42 Warrior
Zarra - 43 Druid
 
Just a few points I want to mention:

I've been a lot at Paw and Miel B and I actually never got wiped. The Enchanter Mobs in Paw are for the Enchanter starfall so they have special drops and the Wizard Mobs in Mielech B are just a bit of challenge.
But from what I have experienced it isn't really a problem to take them down with a normal 40-45 group, thought it would hit all the group members. They don't have that much HP, I figured out when I casted taps on them that they would do much more damage to them.
I think it is fine as it is, the caster mobs are fine, just some challenge.
It would be a bit boring when you lower either their damage or their HP to make them easier.
 
It's not that caster mobs are a challenge, it's that they are a challenge far outside their con.

In SoD they seem particularly bad, they can cast in extremely short periods of time while fighting as well as any melee only mob. I can't recall ever resisting a mob cast spell, though admittedly they are normally casting them at my pet. When they do cast at Gamba, even a green con can land multiple spells on him seemingly without effort.
 
A single enchanter in a group can mez 4 mobs and keep them mezzed while the group kills a 5th mob then picks off each of the 4 reamining. It makes sense to me that a single enchanter mob can do the same to a group. I wiped many times in Paw from an enchanter or two mezzing the group and killing us off one by one, just made it more of a challenge adn we learned to make good use of stun and big, fast nukes to kill the chanters first.

As a wizard in my low 50s I would group in Mielech B and watch the tank (not a monk) pull 4 or 5 mobs at once. With no enchanter in the group I would run up and PBAE all the frogs, then use my big nukes to finish them off. While the group would kill a single mob, I would personally dispatch with 3 or 4. I see no reason why the wizard mobs should not be just as dangerous to a group. Again, we learned to keep them stunned and kill them fast so they couldn't nuke. Between pally stun, bash, slam, and caster stuns (I think I had 3 or 4 in my low 50s) you can prevent any caster mob from getting a spell off, and just worry about the melee damage they do. A specialized group is not needed for these encounters, just a thoughtful aproach.

Caster mobs should be just as much a threat to us as we are to them, otherwise every encounter would be trivial.
 
lacus said:
Here are my suggestions for fixing this problem. These are meant as distinct options and obviously I think implementing ALL of them would be too much.

1) Tone down caster MOB hit points. If you recall, in Old Sebilis on live, the froglok wizard MOBs were some of the easiest due to their very low HP, even though they did pretty decent damage with their spells. I think the wizard MOBs there could be much more difficult and that EQLive swung in the other direction in terms of balance. However, I think that something could be learned from this. I suspect that NPC caster HP on SoD is already somewhat reduced, but I think it could use a significant reduction beyond that. This would result in groups having to "burn down" the caster NPCs quickly to avoid the wipe, meaning they would have to employ a different strategy on these MOBs than they would on simple warrior MOBs. However, this would make the fights much more doable, even with diverse groups (most classes have ways of increasing their DPS temporarily). It would, I think, bring the risk more in line with the reward.

2) Increase resistance rates against caster MOBs. As a level 42 warrior with pretty decent resists for my level - I have almost 80 with buff - I pretty much never resisted mez when fighting coercers. If I did, it was just luck. I think that increasing the ability to resist spells would have two good consequences. First, it would provide an added usefulness for the endure/resist spells. As it is now, they do not, as far as I can tell, make a noticeable difference. I always request resist magic when doing Paw and I still get mezzed pretty much consistently. Likewise, when I was in Miel B, I cast resist fire and resist cold on all of my party members with my druid and pulling wizards was still often catastrophic.

3) Increase the loot on caster NPCs. Perhaps caster NPCs could be given random drops that are nicer than the random drops on their melee NPC counterparts. I can't think of any concrete examples of what they might drop, unfortunately.

4) Decrease the melee power of caster NPCs. As it is right now, a froglok evoker will still punch me for about 70 or so. Then he'll nuke me for 450. I think in order for it to be balanced, this really needs to be one or the other. NPC casters should not be as weak as PC casters in terms of melee, obviously, but I think if they were toned down some in this regard it would be a bit more fair. Perhaps if the froglok evoker only hit for 50 points and didn't bash, say. (I apologize if evokers already do not bash.)

5) Confine caster NPCs, for the most part, to named encounters. The rationale for this is basically what was given above regarding The Mind Claw.
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Agreed, implementing all of these would absolutely be overpowering. I think numbers 3 and 5 are kind of out of the question. If loot on casters was increased, loot on melees would have to be decreased in order to maintain the overall risk v. reward of the zones/areas in question, and casters are supposed to be pervasive in certain zones, per your first assumption.

Also, I'd say that caster mob power at high levels (60+ maybe? Most definitely at 65, possibly 55+) is quite well balanced. At lower levels, it isn't that much of a problem. For the mid levels, though, you might well have a point.

From my experience, caster mobs in the mid levels were indeed disproportionately difficult compared to melee mobs, and compared to the challenge offered by casters at higher or lower levels. That results in a lot of difficulty in zones like MielechA (some areas) and Paw. Now, a certain amount of that is expected because those are particularly rewarding zones in terms of exp. It seems to me, though, that the added difficulty is provided by the types and frequency of mobs. There are a lot more casters in those zones than in easier, less rewarding zones.

I'd say that the balance of caster mobs to melee mobs in the mid levels at least bears a look, if not some retooling. The fact (and by fact, of course, I don't mean fact; only my impressions) is that there seems to be a much greater difference in their power than at lower or higher levels.

aarielly said:
A single enchanter in a group can mez 4 mobs and keep them mezzed while the group kills a 5th mob then picks off each of the 4 reamining. It makes sense to me that a single enchanter mob can do the same to a group. I wiped many times in Paw from an enchanter or two mezzing the group and killing us off one by one, just made it more of a challenge adn we learned to make good use of stun and big, fast nukes to kill the chanters first.

As a wizard in my low 50s I would group in Mielech B and watch the tank (not a monk) pull 4 or 5 mobs at once. With no enchanter in the group I would run up and PBAE all the frogs, then use my big nukes to finish them off. While the group would kill a single mob, I would personally dispatch with 3 or 4. I see no reason why the wizard mobs should not be just as dangerous to a group. Again, we learned to keep them stunned and kill them fast so they couldn't nuke. Between pally stun, bash, slam, and caster stuns (I think I had 3 or 4 in my low 50s) you can prevent any caster mob from getting a spell off, and just worry about the melee damage they do. A specialized group is not needed for these encounters, just a thoughtful aproach.

Caster mobs should be just as much a threat to us as we are to them, otherwise every encounter would be trivial.
Click to expand...
Comparisons between PCs and mobs are really not valid. If you do want to rely on that argument, though, the natural response would be that one chanter can't tear through 4 or 5 mobs using just his melee, nor can he tank a group of 5 or 6 mobs. He can't do the same melee DPS as a warrior. There is no and should be no parity between PCs and NPCs for gameplay reasons.
 
There's a reason nobody goes to fearstone. IMO all of the problems listed could be solved by making the resist calculations less massively harsh in the middling levels--it's damn near physically impossible to resist a spell, making charm, fear, etc far, far more lethal than they should be. I've argued in the past that a good portion of fighting npc casters is strategy, and i stick with that--I think, for example, that wizards aren't really that bad. However, the resist rates make some spells like fear ridiculously good, which in turn makes fighting npcs that can fear you a giant pain in the ass. This includes necromancers and enchanters.
 
The only problem I really have with caster mobs is that they melee so damn hard, in addition to their spells. The level 40ish evokers in MielechB will nuke for 200+, then proceed to melee for 50-60's. I'd like to see a wizard that can melee for 50-60's. If their melee damage was cut, say, by half, it would balance them out pretty well. But that's just me.
 
Tweak resists to where an appropriately geared level adventurer can resist a spell, and it makes a twinked adventurer impervious to spells.

The twink then tears through supposedly challenging content for increased reward for zero risk.



In live the result was that you had to have 200+ ina resist or be many levels higher than the caster to resist a spell out of anything more than bizarre luck. It really was an on off switch... 198 you resisted nothing, 202 was resist resist resist. Mobs could burn you all day long til you finally dinged, and boom, they cannot touch you anymore.

At higher levels, your gear have resists, and they have larger resists values. You resist buffs are for signifigant amounts. You can achieve the high resist score needed to semi protect yourself from hostile magic. The Mid level player is encountering heavy hostile magic with no possible means to defend himself. And if you fix it, you break it for the heavily twinked.

So I imagine we will just be told to get over it... yes, it is a problem, but it has no solution. Take heart that you can outgrow it.
 
moghedancarns said:
Tweak resists to where an appropriately geared level adventurer can resist a spell, and it makes a twinked adventurer impervious to spells.

The twink then tears through supposedly challenging content for increased reward for zero risk.
Click to expand...

Spoil it for everyone in order to make twinks mildly better at fighting 5% of mobs? Moreover, diminishing returns from resists isnt hard to code; say make the difference between 40 and 50 mr is the same as the difference between 80 and 120 MR.
 
What needs to be done is a serious revamp of the resist calculcations, they are what is creating horribly hard caster mobs in the mid levels, and super easy ones in the high levels.
 
re:

I agree with 1, 2 and 4. Modify any of these, specifically HP of casting mobs, and it would help balace mid level exping.


Mythryn wrote:
How about making it so they don't melee just like tank/melee mobs?
Click to expand...


Wiz wrote:
They don't.
Click to expand...


I think mob HP at midlevels should really be looked at. Lacus, being a warrior, has a little more than 1900hp unbuffed. I on the otherhand, being a wizard, only have 784hp. Now, I know the froglok Evoker in guk has much more than 1/2 the hp of a froglok elite (despite being 2-3 levels lower than it on average), yet it can hit for near as much and also nuke for 400something. Just seems a little unbalanced to me.




Blaq
 
Mob casters cannot follow the same formulas (or even somewhere near the same formulas) as player casters, since they have to remain a challenge to a group.
 
Thanks for all the responses, both negative and positive.

When I was listing the possible solutions to the problem, I did not intend to make them all "equal" options. Obviously option #5 is in tension with the desire to make MOBs diverse. I included, it, though, because I thought it possible that the other four options may not be viable / desirable from the perspective of the designers. 3 is also less elegant, but I think the opposition to it may be based on a misconception of what I meant. Do you remember how froglok knights (or whatever they were called) in Sebilis had like a .5% chance of dropping Cobalt Vambraces? I was thinking more along those lines when talking about caster loot tables. However, the point is well taken that this is not the best solution.

On reconsidering the problem, it sounds like Wiz is taking the right approach - resists are just ineffective at mid levels.
 
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