Why were bards changed?
- Thread starter Puella
- Start date
iaeolan
Dalayan Elder
Nuncio said:
I don't wish to argue the stun point, because I agree that songs should 'stop' when stunned and not completely fade.
IMO the point of songs is an inspirational type effect, lasting 200% longer than the duration of the song itself. Listen to a good song, you will know what I mean
You haven't really thought this through too much, have you?Nuncio said:
1) Trying to pull out the realism card has nothing to do with anything. You're right, he'd stop singing when you whacked him with a shovel. But by the same token, some dude in the corner singing couldn't very well kill someone with his singing (though certain notable exceptions, such as one F. Durst, may pertain). Your point there is kinda irrelevant.
2) As for the effects on you when stunned, it's not even remotely parallel to the problems bards are having right now. When you're bashed or stunned all of your DoTs and buffs don't instantly disappear. For bards they do. See the difference?
Hasrett said:
The act of 'singing' is an ongoing process. Letting loose a dot or somesuch is doing a thing that one time. some spells we cast take 4 seconds or more to cast, during which we can't do anything else. If we get interrupted during that cast, we have to start over. And how long does it take to start singing again?
I'll state again, I don't play a bard, so I can't pretend to even know if this is a totally class-killing 'feaure' or not. It doesn't seem to be with the minor bit of information I have concerning it, however.
Saying that it's an ongoing process is somewhat misleading. Previously, bard songs had a limited duration. 3 ticks, maybe? I dunno, I haven't played a bard since velious era EQLive. The point is, though, that the songs lasted for X amount of time, after which they had to be refreshed. Other things could be done in the meantime, including getting beat on by mobs, without all songs abruptly ending.Nuncio said:
The new system, the constant melody, removes that ability. That means that if a bard is using charm or mez, that ends instantly if he gets bashed, so his pet or mezzed mob immediately jumps on him along with the original mob. Thus unless the crowd is already reasonably under control, a bard is going to have a hard time playing crowd control. I've seen it happen in my groups--bard has a couple of buff songs going, and one mob charmed. A pather wanders by, and because the bard has buffs going, he gets aggro. He gets bashed, buffs drop, and the charmed mob gets uncharmed. That leaves us with the original mob we were fighting, the add, and the charmed mob--making a bard acting as crowd control a liability in uncertain conditions, rather than an asset.
That, you see, is a bad thing.
As Wiz said, though, it's something that needs some attnetion, and will likely be modified.
The change doesn't hurt bards in certain facets of their class (we have great results on raids with a bard bot keeping Warcry and either mana or resists going while sitting in the corner). But in other ways the current status quo is a pretty hefty nerf.
gorgetrapper
Dalayan Beginner
SKs have a spell that takes 9 seconds to cast and one slam interrupts that, how do you think we feel?
Again, how does that really apply? The same is true of most if not all classes. Paladins have buffs, many classes have pets, there are ports, gate, etc.gorgetrapper said:
Those spells aren't absolutely central to their respective classes' function in groups, soloing, and raids. With a few exceptions, they're cast between fights, at the beginning of a raid, at the end, or whatever. Songs are what make a Bard Bardy (tm), though, and they must constantly use them. Without their songs bards are pretty much worthless. Their melee DPS is mediocre, they can't hold aggro, and they can't serve any caster or healer functions. An SK without his 9 second spell--a pet summon?--is still a superb tank. Also, if that spell is interrupted, it doesn't stop 75% of the contribution the SK was giving to the group. With a bard, one bash ends all songs, and therefore pretty much all the utility he was providing to the group or raid--to say nothing of pretty much nixing soloability.
Another thing Wiz did mention as well in the /ooc chat was there were too many people who didn't have a clue about bards but still insisted on putting their 2 cents in anyway. This results in a lot of unnecessary posts on bard threads which is burying the legitimate info.
Please stay out of the bard threads if you're not a bard and don't understand how we work. Our class is hurting right now. Badly. Our solo ability has drastically been reduced and our xp group efficiency has gone down. Our raid role, while hardly stellar, can now be handled by a single bot. On top of that, the entire playstyle and functionality of the class has been turned on it's ear.
Hasrett is right. We are no longer reliable crowd control for a group due to the stun/all songs dropping issue. Crowd control is one of our tickets for getting groups. This has been pointed out since day 1 of the change but it keeps getting drowned out by people who don't know what they are talking about.
Please stay out of the bard threads if you're not a bard and don't understand how we work. Our class is hurting right now. Badly. Our solo ability has drastically been reduced and our xp group efficiency has gone down. Our raid role, while hardly stellar, can now be handled by a single bot. On top of that, the entire playstyle and functionality of the class has been turned on it's ear.
Hasrett is right. We are no longer reliable crowd control for a group due to the stun/all songs dropping issue. Crowd control is one of our tickets for getting groups. This has been pointed out since day 1 of the change but it keeps getting drowned out by people who don't know what they are talking about.
i may not know a much about bards. but i do believe that i know what i am talking about when i say ive seen a bard kite a few mobs just as fast as i can duo 1 mob. now, i believe there should be some tweaking with the new changes. but i dont believe the old way bards were is any better. they, imo, could solo far to well. what change id like to see is when a bard gets stunned or whatnot. the spells dont instantly fade. but last a duration or something. to give the bard a few seconds to recover. re mez and rebuff.
Nuncio said:
Then :censored: !!!!! .... damn....
And Talamr, its nice that you like to duo when you fight stuff, thats great. Some of us dont like to duo, so we play solo classes, like druids, necros and bards. Bards got the shaft for soloability, groupability and raidability. You dont play a bard, so please, go back to whatever the hell you were killing before and stay out of the bard thread with your little ideas about how some bard could kick your ass killing pumas or some shit.
try treading my last statement-Puella said:Nuncio said:
Then :censored: !!!!! .... damn....
And Talamr, its nice that you like to duo when you fight stuff, thats great. Some of us dont like to duo, so we play solo classes, like druids, necros and bards. Bards got the shaft for soloability, groupability and raidability. You dont play a bard, so please, go back to whatever the hell you were killing before and stay out of the bard thread with your little ideas about how some bard could kick your ass killing pumas or some shit.
I agree, thats kinda screwed.
However, don't tell me to stfu when I'm here learning about your class.
It is not merely the mez aspect of the feature that is debilitating, nor is it just that feature. The 'all song effects fade when stuned' feature affects EVERYTHING, not just mez. It affects selos, it affects charm, it affects dots, it affects damage shields, the list goes on and on. Imagine for a moment that you have spent the last 9 seconds of a fight putting up selos to run faster, DoT number one on a mob, DoT number two on the mob, and you get stunned by some random add or something while rebuffing selos. Now, before, this was bad enough. You had to wait to get unstuned, try to run away (with selos speed) without getting stuned again while recasting selos (which has a massive duration of 12 seconds) (sidenote, this is much harder on SoD than on live because of the insane backside stuns which occur while trying to run away. But this is a great feature as it adds excitement to the game).
Now, with the feature you so willing babbled about:
There is absolutely no comparison here with another class being stunned. If a druid gets stunned sow doesnt fade, if a necro gets stunned all dots dont fade, if a chanter gets stunned god help us if all the mezes and stuns break, if SK's get stunned I can only assume that all of your life tap over time spells, buffs, and debuffs all dont instantly fade. This of course would be ridiculous, as it is with the bard class. In fact, with all of these other classes, if you get chain stuned for more than one tick, your spells still dont start fading. With bards, if you get stunned a couple times lasting over one tick, your buffs and debuffs and dmg songs are liable to start fading anyways just because of the short duration. This is perfectly plausible. Instant fading is not.
Please Nuncio, I dont hate you, I just hate people trying to argue against bards about the nerf when they themselves have no idea what the hell they are talking about.
I got an accounting test to go to, peace everyone :finger:
Now, with the feature you so willing babbled about:
If the above bard gets stunned, all dots fade (six seconds worth of recasting for four ticks each) so no dmg is currently being done to the mob, and selos instantly fades, meaning you get your little bardic ass whoped while trying to run away and recast selo.Nuncio said:
There is absolutely no comparison here with another class being stunned. If a druid gets stunned sow doesnt fade, if a necro gets stunned all dots dont fade, if a chanter gets stunned god help us if all the mezes and stuns break, if SK's get stunned I can only assume that all of your life tap over time spells, buffs, and debuffs all dont instantly fade. This of course would be ridiculous, as it is with the bard class. In fact, with all of these other classes, if you get chain stuned for more than one tick, your spells still dont start fading. With bards, if you get stunned a couple times lasting over one tick, your buffs and debuffs and dmg songs are liable to start fading anyways just because of the short duration. This is perfectly plausible. Instant fading is not.
Please Nuncio, I dont hate you, I just hate people trying to argue against bards about the nerf when they themselves have no idea what the hell they are talking about.
I got an accounting test to go to, peace everyone :finger:
iaeolan
Dalayan Elder
Nuncio said:
This isnt really the place or time to be learning the class and trying to give an input on a problem. People assume a lot from what they have seen in groups and what they have read, but don't know wtf is going on in actuality. I would have to side w/ the majority and say leave the discussion of how bards are going to be played to the people who play them a fair amount.
And talamr, there are also many people who can't group a mob as fast as you duo. Some classes are not cut out for soloing, but bards are. We are not the best though, I'd have to give that to necros/mages/druids.
Hasrett, appriciate your input, but you are not a bard as well... havnt played one since velious... and changes have taken place awhile ago where charm does not break if you are bashed i've noted that target dots do not either. Same holds for you... You dont know the class.. please refrain from input.