We All Love Monks, Here

[dracosf22]

It's a little more tedious to parse for accuracy since I have to find parses where I'm in the same stance the whole time. But from what I can tell, the loss of FKx3 combo is about 10% accuracy. So accounting for this loss might need more than a minor tweak? Also including parses using divine grace because I miss it so much.

PRE monk patch
Stance: Divine grace
Fk x3 combo up most of the time
1506 hits
208 misses
= 87.9% accuracy

Stance: aggressive
FK x 3 combo up most of the time:
1396 hits
516 misses
= 73% accuracy

PATCH 1
Stance: aggressive
1918 hits
1095 misses
= 63% accuracy

Patch 2
1778 hits
1066 misses
= 62.5% accuracy

Loss of dex on a bunch of items would play in here, and not just for monks.

 

[Stonewalljack]

It's a little more tedious to parse for accuracy since I have to find parses where I'm in the same stance the whole time. But from what I can tell, the loss of FKx3 combo is about 10% accuracy. So accounting for this loss might need more than a minor tweak? Also including parses using divine grace because I miss it so much.

PRE monk patch
Stance: Divine grace
Fk x3 combo up most of the time
1506 hits
208 misses
= 87.9% accuracy

Stance: aggressive
FK x 3 combo up most of the time:
1396 hits
516 misses
= 73% accuracy

PATCH 1
Stance: aggressive
1918 hits
1095 misses
= 63% accuracy

Patch 2
1778 hits
1066 misses
= 62.5% accuracy

Maybe this is why there is such a dps loss with the new system? I was comparing raid mobs where I could just sit in the back, and all my old parses were using s15. 63/87.9 = 0.72 which is about the difference between my pre and post patch dps.

 

[Pecannius]

Maybe this is why there is such a dps loss with the new system? I was comparing raid mobs where I could just sit in the back, so all my old parses were using s15.

Yes, there are several reasons why monk dps is down, in no particular order (summarizing the last 20 pages);
1) Accuracy loss from Fk x3 combo.
2) Empowered flying kicks can't crit (like fkx3 combo could)
3) No more s15.
4) 1 Damage from every 5 H2h skill is gone while using barefists. (str/dex is supposed to simulate this loss)

 

[Kedrin]

 

[Seichusen]

Just as monks can't be attacked from behind, they also deal the same damage to the front of the mob as you would from behind it. He knows what's coming, so weaving through the enemies attacks has no affect on his ability to dish out the dirt, and still "aux" attacks away from his comrades. He's not a tank perse, but is capable of "holding things off" or "buying time" should worst come to worst. He IS a dps, but he's not a rogue or a ranger. He doesn't have backstab, so who cares. Or turn FK into a makeshift frontal "backstab". Bonus from the front rather than the rear, because you're kicking something in the damned face with lethal force. Simple. Non-convoluted. Problem 'mostly' solved.

 

[Dinadass]

Just as monks can't be attacked from behind, they also deal the same damage to the front of the mob as you would from behind it. He knows what's coming, so weaving through the enemies attacks has no affect on his ability to dish out the dirt, and still "aux" attacks away from his comrades. He's not a tank perse, but is capable of "holding things off" or "buying time" should worst come to worst. He IS a dps, but he's not a rogue or a ranger. He doesn't have backstab, so who cares. Or turn FK into a makeshift frontal "backstab". Bonus from the front rather than the rear, because you're kicking something in the damned face with lethal force. Simple. Non-convoluted. Problem 'mostly' solved.

Huge cooldown on invuln stance for no reason
Loss of s15 which was our best dps AND best tank stance
Loss of WW stance
Less self sustain via inferior lifetap
Items nerfed and str/dex scaling not even working?

I'm not knocking your idea, it's good, but there's a lot more problems than just the dps loss.

 

[Jaec]

Round kick is a good solution to WW stance being gone, EXCEPT I can't do it in tank form, so all I do is grab 5 mobs and take huge dmg cause I'm in aggressive...I am beginning to agree that these stances being a decider of what moves I can do are kinda stupid. I can't farm good cause my AE aggro subjects me to taking more hits, which if I am WWing its cause its more than 2 mobs. So S2, WW, and 3 mobs hitting me, yeah that is gonna hurt a lot.

Loss of S15 is annoying. S15 was a special do it all stance that spoke what a mnk does. Increased avoidance and increased accuracy. You taking dmg? hit S15. you needing DPS? hit S15. I think, the implementation of Fist of Fury (IF we are getting that) will make the difference.

Ethereal, noone needs to explains that as we already have. ain't right, and if it was a low CD it isn't even exploitable. It is a DA, Clrs have 3 and no one says anything. So I don't see why a 72 min CD was EVER given to it.

The Lifetap is fine, its the stam generation that needs a boost. and idk about the be above 40% to use. Thats like 20% of my stam wasted, and most mnks will never get off more than 1 kick off on trash mobs unless they have the tome that increases base stam to 40%. The stam generation is just too slow. I can not even build an entire bar of stam before a EXP mob is either dead, or so close to death that I can't use it all in time. Sure, u can burst it off as u get it, but even then its just so slow. Lifetap takes a bit too much, and Dragon punch needs a new effect. Root/KB has always been lost on me. Too many mobs summon for that to ever be useful. On old Thaz Fight mnks could go around dragon punching to help keep the enchanter alive, but as is, there is not a single fight it helps on.

Items were nerfed, but the str/dex IS working, is it ALL working? idk. something is wrong. With shammy stats and GoE I reach 1.0 ratio, Then add in my 6 fire from gloves and I am still doing the same DPS as my weapons.

Seichusen is right, and I have been trying my best to stress it on here but to no avail so far. Mnks DPS from the front. Add a new stance and forget s2. Ignore (partly or completely) all defensive abilities except maybe Ripo, and a small accuracy bonus. There u have your auxing DPS kit. Great avoidance when armed, DPSes from the front, remember...Mnk DPS matches noone but Bards and Bsts and when a bard has Tome 4 of Blademasters rhythm even the bard out-DPSes him. We also need a boost on the sustain/Stam regen or something. Lifetap with is a 4% Hp heal (for me anyways) can do it like 4 or less times from full stance. thats a 16-12% heal. It takes a LONG time to do that. Not to mention the DPS loss if u go ALL out on that lifetap.

 

[Dinadass]

How do you know str/dex is working? Asking Slaar and him saying it is doesn't mean anything tbh.

I ran two 15 minute parses, one with sham stats, one without, and my overall dps and average punch damage were the same. If 160 extra str/dex isn't enough to see a difference, I think the system isn't working.

 

[Jaec]

well I suppose I could be wrong. I was thinking it through in the sense of if it didn't work my barefist should be 13/18. theres no way barefist with that dmg/delay is out DPSing my weps. Then I realized I forgot about the +6 so 19 dmg 18 delay. Add in buffs and I suppose it would come even with my weps..which would mean you might be right.

 

[Slaariel]

After getting another round of testing with the latest changes, here is how Monk DPS sits in relation to other classes:

While tanking / aux-tanking a mob (i.e. in front of a mob in melee range) at max DPS: Monk > Rogue > Ranger
While tanking / aux-tanking a mob (i.e. in front of a mob in melee range) while maximizing defense: Monk == Rogue > Ranger (it's pretty close, but the Monk is way more survivable here)
While behind the mob, maximizing DPS by any means necessary: Rogue > Ranger > Monk
Outside of combat range: Ranger > Monk == Rogue (a ha ha ha)

Ignoring the other issues for a moment, what if anything is wrong with this picture? To me, it looks right or pretty close to right.

Now un-ignoring the other issues:

Ethereal Stance timer was a typo and both it and Iron Will have been set to 10 minutes base reuse (reduced with tomes). If 10 minutes (reduced with tomes) is unreasonable, say something (remember the duration is now fixed, making it more reliable overall).
Fist-damage stat-scaling worked but not fully anyway I rewrote it to work properly and take glove-damage into account more smoothly.
Each +damage on gloves grants +0.05 ratio now (which is about the same as it was before).
Monks will now have an innate accuracy bonus while unarmed.
The lifetap is pretty good already but now it will scale with Lifetap Mastery. Remember: you heal MORE than you damage (*1.5).
Force of Body now affects FK less but adds scaling to all empowered moves. IN GENERAL, if the move does damage, FoB will make it do more. If not, it will cause the move to use less Discipline. Also, Monks get a small Flurry chance per FoB tome.

 

[Thade]

While behind the mob, maximizing DPS by any means necessary: Rogue > Ranger > Monk

Ignoring the other issues for a moment, what if anything is wrong with this picture? To me, it looks right or pretty close to right.

I'm not going to post about the rest of this because I think this is the real issue at heart here. While this is fine, what matters more than order is how close they actually are. Should a rogue more dps than ranger/monk? yep. Should it be 30% more dps? 10% more dps? This is the issue here. It's not the fact that monks are worse dps than rangers and rogues, its that as of right now the gap is too large.

 

[Dinadass]

I'm not going to post about the rest of this because I think this is the real issue at heart here. While this is fine, what matters more than order is how close they actually are. Should a rogue more dps than ranger/monk? yep. Should it be 30% more dps? 10% more dps? This is the issue here. It's not the fact that monks are worse dps than rangers and rogues, its that as of right now the gap is too large.

Yes, this.

I'm pretty sure bards do more frontal damage than rogues and maybe rangers, where do they fall in the hierarchy at various tiers? I think monks should out parse them while aux tanking but I doubt they do atm.

 

[Pecannius]

Did the empowered FK ever get fixed so that it can crit and scale from dmg increment & cunning/fiery?

1 more shameless plea to try to get s15 back in somehow, even on a certain CD to help that monk solo farm game.

 

[burt6]

I'm not going to post about the rest of this because I think this is the real issue at heart here. While this is fine, what matters more than order is how close they actually are. Should a rogue more dps than ranger/monk? yep. Should it be 30% more dps? 10% more dps? This is the issue here. It's not the fact that monks are worse dps than rangers and rogues, its that as of right now the gap is too large.

I feel like if warriors are the melee baseline then it should look like
rogues should be 150%,
rangers like 130%
monks 120%
warriors 100%
bards 80%.
something like that?

 

[Slaariel]

Well behind the mob at max DPS in as equal a condition as I could manufacture it looked roughly like this (remember this is for laboratory conditions so the focus is on the numbers' relation to each other and not what happens vs. a real T13 raid mob etc.)

Monk: 850
Ranger: 1000
Rogue: 1400

Also you do not want to know the number for when a Rogue uses Vah Banner, etc. because it is grotesque (as it should be).

In front of the mob at max DPS it looks like this:

Monk: 550
Rogue: 400
Ranger: 350

If the Monk is fully defensive, that DPS dropped to about 400 (but, again, a fully defensive Monk is way more durable with innate block chance and effectively 400/tick regen or so from Lifetap).

A sentiment I'm still seeing that makes this hard to juggle is that a Monk should be doing great DPS while fully using his aux-tanking abilities which is literally exactly the same as asking for a Warrior to do great DPS while wearing a shield. Further, I know that end-game Bards do too much DPS right now and that is a problem with Bards, not Monks. But please discuss where these numbers ought to be, I guess.

 

[Thade]

What characters were doing these parses? The rogue looks about what i'd expect for a tier 13 ish rogue against a mob with 0 movement. Ranger looks really low compared to what you'd normally see at tier 13+. The monk at 850 is too low. That's lower than acceptable for just about any mob past sharn'ree for someone you are bringing as a true dps slot.

At tier 13+ attempting to do max dps i'd expect something like

Rogue/Wizard ~1400-1500 dps

Mage/Necro/Ranger ~1300 dps

Bard/Bst/Enchanter ~1100 dps.

Where do monks belong? I'd guess somewhere around mage/necro/ranger? Slightly lower maybe. Of course the caveat should be if they are auxing they shouldn't be doing this much dps (750 or so? Not really sure what's appropriate). But for the majority of the time you are NOT auxing or tanking and need to be actively contributing to dps.

 

[Dinadass]

1400 Rogue
1000 Ranger
850 Monk

Is that ranger meleeing or something? If they are shooting, using appropriate arrows, have their bird, and are casting nukes as appropriate, rangers do more like 90% rogue dps than 70%.

And a monk doing barely half rogue dps is atrocious. That's less than a shaman can do if they're trying to dps, less than bards, less than beastlords even and everyone knows bst dps is too low as it is.

Also unless the lifetap effect has been greatly buffed since the Dec 7 patch, 400/tick is a lot lot more than I was seeing.

 

[Jaec]

Monk: 850
Ranger: 1000
Rogue: 1400

Also you do not want to know the number for when a Rogue uses Vah Banner, etc. because it is grotesque (as it should be).

In front of the mob at max DPS it looks like this:

Monk: 550
Rogue: 400
Ranger: 350

Okay, This is what I wanted to talk to you about yesterday Slaar. In this setup here, a mnk is doing 550 DPS auxing in full aggressive. Lets look at a real raid situation.

Monk: 550
Ranger: 1000
Rogue: 1400

That is what parses will always look like, unless the mnk goes behind, at which point hes acting like a rogue. In rogue position he does okay DPS compared to these Melee. in the front, he sustains great, I agree and that is a true great thing and I love it. The problem is, you are building the Mnk on Auxing while DPSing, but then telling him to go behind and DPS. There is only 1 way to do that and Tevinter, Lowako, and them explained that. Circle the mob, well, why not just make us do more DPS in the front? I am happy with these changes, they are good, and I like to see the Mnk be the king of frontal DPS. Problem is I watch Warriors and Shadowknights do 500+ DPS in the front. SK has Nukes which combined with a 2hander in s9. Warrior has Flurry, Driving Strike, and dual-wields.

My solution is as I said yesterday. I was hoping when you said you gave mnks a accuracy bonus bare-handed it would make all the difference. It does, behind the mob, but not in-front. So my solution is a DPS stances that increases Frontal DPS, but lowers it a tad over all. 10% (iirc) haste and a 5% avoidance loss is the stats of S2. Scrap that, and create a new Stance. Keep the avoidance loss (we are VERY sustainable in the front and lowering to DPS is nothing.) for the Atk speed part, implement a chance (or leave it permanent) to ignore Dodge/block. This allows a mnk to DPS more in the front, AND to keep him from doing tons of DPS in the back, like increased atk speed or dmg and such does.

as to what Dindass says....IDK I leave that to him to explain.

DPSing in the front is the mnks domain. Just as DPS in the back is the Rogues domain and the Ranged DPS (melee) is the rangers Domain. Allow the mnk to DPS from the front, I cant see how that would be OP or ground breaking. We dont do 1400 and 1000 DPS...-and if others are right and the 1k is low for a ranger- then I see even less of a problem for Mnks to DPS from the front cause they are a good 200+ DPS below the other classes! and since Ripo will in enssnce (if coding allows) be ignored there is still a small DPS loss and Enrage (if it was flat out ignore it all) Enrage will still effect Mnks.

 

[Slaariel]

Okay, I see what you are saying believe me but please tell me when you think a Monk should use his defensive abilities (defensive stance, block / aux bonus from using weapons). It sounds to me like you want to be weaponless in aggressive doing max DPS in all situations, even while tanking or aux-tanking (i.e. in front of the mob). Say that I agree that Monk DPS is too low from behind the mob, fine. Are people really asking for Ranger-level DPS while in front of the mob while using defensive abilites? Are people saying that defensive abilities are entirely a waste of time? Should I undo the defensive changes and make fists worse than weapons again? No free blocks, no ae mitigation, no rampage dodging but hit harder with a stick?

Editing to add: In the same conditions, a Shaman hit just over 700 (this is mathematically less than 850)and a Bard hit 950-1000. Just to give a little context to these numbers. If you think you can do better, let me know.

 

[Dinadass]

No I don't think monks should deal ranger level dps while doing defensive things and auxing. With that 1400 rogue as a baseline, I'd say monks should be like 1200 while maximizing from the front or back, 800-900 or so while auxing and doing defensive stuff like lifetapping.

It still seems like the majority of mid/high tier fights involve things that will prevent monks from auxing without healers keeping them alive which is problematic and makes their niche pretty limited.