Voice of Kaez Timer (Hijacked: Terror of Kaezul)
- Thread starter Kakos
- Start date
I think the difference is gear tbh.. I run with thaz bp as well, my mana is only around 5K, if I had 7K I don't think it would be a huge deal. Now I don't run with won in groups.. but maybe I should.
Anyway.. previous mob fight, say 3 mobs for sake of argument
Pull, terror 1 target 1
Switch target 2, terror 2
switch target 3 terror 1 again
Bring back to group, if group not AE'ing spam terror 1 and 2 on target i'm on to keep aggro. If group is AE'ing I occasionally switch off target to increase aggro on off mobs
New Fight
Pull Terror 1/assault 1 (same hotkey)
Switch target 2 Terror 1, assault 1
Switch target 3 Terror 1, assault 1
Bring back to group, cast terror again when old wears off, don't have to worry about first 2 targets at all now since aggro is set. So I just stay on the target i'm on (wonderful)
However, If I only cast terror on the target i'm on when it wears off other dps will steal aggro.. so, I lifetap occasionally through and vortex of death..
Now, there is no question, I prefer the way it is now to the way it used to be, just so much easier to keep aggro on multiples.. however I think I use more mana on the multiples because previously I often didn't have to spam any terrors on the adds to keep aggro, sometimes I did, depends on the group. The 3x mana cost not a big deal for a couple of fights but does add over time..
Now maybe I do lifetap more than necessary, but even if do bare minimum to keep aggro I still run out of mana a lot quicker than I used to. If i'm not running with a JB/Kei now, I'm essentially out of mana always.. if I do have it I'm oom a lot but it's bearable.
I think if I had 7K mana and FT 10 plus... it wouldn't be a big deal.. but most SK's are not close to that.
Otcho
Dalayan Pious Diety
I think the big problem for you is your teammates seem to be shitbags, I am clueless as to how they are pulling aggro off you when I went to a raid zone to farm a trash drop today and on a mob that has 300k~ hp a monk could sit there and pummel it to 60-50% from one terror/assault and vortex and just meleeing the rest of the way. ( http://shardsofdalaya.com/fomelo/fomelo.php?char=stever )
The only classes that really are going to put out too much hate for a shadowknight when they are being lazy are monks and rangers, and monks being lazy is just pathetic and they are awful for not spending 1 second hitting fd. Really I can't imagine how your losing aggro outside of your entire group being bad.
I always believed in taking flowing thought when available and its not like you do not have ALOT of options to get it outside of high end gear.
http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Circlet_of_the_Fused
http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Painmetal_Fingertrap
http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Innocence,_Vambraces_of_Purity
+a whole ton I forgot.
Last edited:
I take it you keep aggro by only hitting terror when it wears off... I think you tanking with a nautilus might make the difference... also I seem to recall a post where they mentioned that shield AC may increase aggro during bash (not 100% sure on that).
This may be the difference, i'm not convinced it's necessarily the group.
This may be the difference, i'm not convinced it's necessarily the group.
Otcho
Dalayan Pious Diety
I mean one terror as in literally one cast of terror of kaezul, this is not otcho I was playing, it was slacker ass stever. And yes higher ac shields = more aggro but the key here is that cinn puts out a ridiculous amount of aggro and it melee and one spell round was way more than enough considering this mob has 300kish hp and the only people hitting it are me and him.
i am really curious as to what classes are in your groups that are giving you so many problems and possibly their names so I can be spiteful.
Does Cinn dps the whole fight and not FD?
I mean it's really easy for any of those classes to drop aggro and thus really easy to blame them when they take it... However if I casted only one terror and a monk or ranger had to FD/jolt because they stole aggro.. well thats my fault... If you can keep aggro with just one terror with a t10 monk dps'ing all out then it's gear related because no way I can.
My goal when I'm on single target is to be able to keep aggro on that target even if they all out dps (wizard not included). If i'm grouped with a monk and he's FD'ing during fight, or the rogue has to constantly evade, or the ranger jolt.. then imo i'm not casting enough aggro.. (assuming I'm not switching targets).
.
I mean it's really easy for any of those classes to drop aggro and thus really easy to blame them when they take it... However if I casted only one terror and a monk or ranger had to FD/jolt because they stole aggro.. well thats my fault... If you can keep aggro with just one terror with a t10 monk dps'ing all out then it's gear related because no way I can.
My goal when I'm on single target is to be able to keep aggro on that target even if they all out dps (wizard not included). If i'm grouped with a monk and he's FD'ing during fight, or the rogue has to constantly evade, or the ranger jolt.. then imo i'm not casting enough aggro.. (assuming I'm not switching targets).
.
Otcho
Dalayan Pious Diety
A rogue has literally no reason to not evade constantly and it will eventually BITE YOU IN THE ASS if you don't make a habit of hitting it every time.
If a monk pulls aggro then he hits fd and nothing of value happened.
Really if your losing aggro to melees classes its flat out their fault for being exceptionally lazy, rangers have to drop one jolt on a mob to keep behind for the majority of a high end exp kill
If a monk pulls aggro then he hits fd and nothing of value happened.
Really if your losing aggro to melees classes its flat out their fault for being exceptionally lazy, rangers have to drop one jolt on a mob to keep behind for the majority of a high end exp kill
Tarutao
Staff Emeritus
This is an unreasonable goal.
Mythryn
Dalayan Master
Why is that? We are supposed to be the premier agro class, better at it than any other, and yet, if another class is going to go "all out" at doing what they do best, (damage) they should surpass us at what we do best?
Granted, I don't think we have agro issues currently, and I have indeed kept agro off of multiple tome'd characters that were going all out, I just find this statement odd.
Rorne
The sad fish is a reactionary creature; an enemy o
It's really not. Aggro management isn't solely the job of the tank.
This is true, but shouldn't SK's should get some advantage through superior agro? If a wizard has to concussion the same amount as with a pally or warrior, then what is the point? Where do SK's gain from better agro?
I played around on Jose (SK char) tonight. I found the terror changes really pleasant. This was for a simple xp group. 1 terror per mob + assault on single pulls. Multiple pulls I would re-terror about mid-fight. Seemed fine.
I do think veil of dis (don't have marlow) is too short in duration. It's just hard for me to justify tossing that spell instead of an extra terror because I didn't notice any difference with using it during a pull, or mid-fight, or any other time. The short duration meant that for best theoretical benefit, I had to time it with casters, and i think needing to time it makes it less useful for emergency situations.
Last edited:
Tarutao
Staff Emeritus
I disagree with you on two levels, the first of which I've quoted. With the modifier "among tanking classes for single targets", we would agree.
The second point is that the abilities of one class should not be at the expense of another. Your argument sounds to me to equivalent to saying that "clerics are the premier healing class; no other classes should need to heal". I think we can agree at least that this statement is unreasonable, and I don't see a significant difference in yours.
Glamrin
Staff Emeritus
You forgot bards and beastlords. Bard agro, especially with their new nuke, is crazy (Bst agro is pretty much same or a lil higher than a same geared monk but no fd +spell agro - cunning agro). rogue agro is pretty good too, but they evade, monks dont always do that why you mention them I guess. If you have an ae group and wizards + magicians ae'ing you need more than one terror on each mob to keep agro on all, magicians are low agro for the type of dmg they cause but they have no concussion.
I usually run with focus, because it is a tank/melee buff and I box a shaman. The extra atk and hp is useful and the charisma does help with resists. Now and then, depending on content I do use spear and I dont think I see more than one resist in a 4 hour session, if Im having bad luck. I dont use spear for everything though and what I cast vary a lot depending on the situation. (ie duo, groupsetup, content). I always have JB or KEI on, sometimes I have SB but only when Im doing something really tough on mana or when a bst in group. I usually keep shroud of nightmares up on myself, ie I dont cast it on every mob but I keep the recourse on myself (2% extra hate, 65 atk, 80spell ac ad 2 more stamina regen is too good to not have). This varies too though, if I have a melee group Ill skip memming it and replace it with touch of the succubus (for raids I use both situationally). What I always have memmed and almost always use is my lifetaps. I dont always bother with using deflux unless my health looks scary, but for duoing for example I use sublimate soul as it refreshes. I only run vortex for hard shit I need to solo or when going with a caster group for exp. I duo a shaman and the hp from it is ridiculously low seeing as it isnt affected by gear/aa/tomes (?), the mana though good is too little to warrant a spellslot/buffslot when duoing, my shaman has canni.
In duo sk always run oom first, but yeah my other char has cani. In ae groups, my sk always runs oom before the healers if on tier, often before casters if on tier, thus 300 more mana for them and 25 for me doesnt seem helpful
I do cast it if I exp with a castergroup, but dont bother if I have a melee group, Ill be oom before the cleric/shaman is anyways.
Otcho
Dalayan Pious Diety
I only run vortex for hard shit I need to solo or when going with a caster group for exp. I duo a shaman and the hp from it is ridiculously low seeing as it isnt affected by gear/aa/tomes (?), the mana though good is too little to warrant a spellslot/buffslot when duoing, my shaman has canni.
In duo sk always run oom first, but yeah my other char has cani. In ae groups, my sk always runs oom before the healers if on tier, often before casters if on tier, thus 300 more mana for them and 25 for me doesnt seem helpful
You get 300 mana ever 2 minutes, You have 15 flowing thought over the cap for one buffslot, this is the best mana regeneration ability in the high end. It is the sole thing shadowknights can do over the other two tanks. Yes the hp is shit, yes it not scaling with tomes is shit but that doesn't change the fact its still the best mana regeneration ability outside of paragon. Your entire group/raid gets 300 mana every 2 minutes because of you, over a 12 minute fight this is massive.
Its been said by devs and I believe even in this thread; SHADOWKNIGHTS DO NOT OUT GENERATE MONKS/RANGERS/other dps class who is being a piece of shit(see: nwaij). Why you would think we do is beyond me, they are always going to beat you eventually if they make no effort to reduce their hate. Its going to happen sooner on paladins/warriors but really why you expect to shoulder all of their burdens makes no sense to me.
I'm not even going to comment on beastlords/brds pulling aggro because I've never once encountered this situation outside of arhagn who was a brain dead moron and attacked the wrong mob while spamming all of his bellows and had +7% agression and refused to buy the reduction aa. Beastlords I have only seen pull aggro one two fights in which the warrior was basically being incapacitated/crippled in attack speed.
Last edited:
Mythryn
Dalayan Master
I figured on your first point, and happen to completely agree, I just wanted some clarification on your statement.
I am not sure how you came about your second point based on my post, as I didn't infer anything of the sort in it, and if you thought so, it was either poorly worded or you misunderstood. But I'll comment on it anyway.
You're wrong.
The abilities of a class are balanced against those of other classes, even if it means at the expense of the other classes. That's just how SoD and EQ are: the abilities of one class have a real and direct impact on the abilities of another.
Take your healer example. Clerics are the premier healing class, so they get more options on how to heal compared to the other two classes: big heals, fast heals, group heals, multiple CHes, HoTs etc. To keep clerics on top, the other classes get a more limited choice. A real, direct impact at the expense.
If you scour the forums, you'll see constant requests and suggestions denied because they would impinge on a class role or ability. SKs were denied AE agro for years because it was a Paladin role. Prime example of the abilities of one class coming at the expense of another. It's just how SoD is.
But really, I have no idea how you got that from my previous post.
Mythryn
Dalayan Master
Any SK that does not see the benefit of Vortex and have it up on every raid is not playing their character to the fullest, and not supporting their raid as they should. It's our one real utility, and one of the spells I would cry and bitch about for years if we lost. I mean, FFS you GAIN HP and mana by casting it. What more could you want? :toot:
Cyzaine
Staff Emeritus
This is not directed just at you, just quoting you. Mathematically you just can't hold hate forever. A monk or ranger or rogue that is on par with you gear and tome wise, WILL pass you unless they choose not too. The ceiling is notably higher for an SK then a pally or warrior (those involved in the terror tests on the test server or with Cyzaine's buddy's hate test know this better than others). With the veil you can raise this ceiling, but eventually it will be passed. This is by design, and has always been the case in some manner or another. Aggro is everyones job.
From a pure numbers standpoint, if you cast Terror of Kaezul you are getting the hate for Terror of Kaezul (55 mana) + 3x Terror of Marlow (51x3 or 153 mana). At the current cost of 165 mana, you are actually coming out ahead, over time. Take that for what it's worth.
Not commenting on any spell mana costs at this point. I still think its a bit too early to make a call on this just as people are starting to get used to the changes.
Just coming back in from The Rust with JB, SB, and PotG:
Im a SK with 65 AAs and about 1600/4600/1910 AC/HP/mana all unbuffed.
No mana or hate issues to report. Mobs stick to me with a single assault and terror with melee/bashing. Not sure the total amount of mana/tick I had, but was keeping vortex and shroud of nightmare active, and maybe required rest once or twice on repops on top of group.
Mana returning to group was 18 (jb) + 8 (sb) + 6 (potg) + 15 (VoD) + 4 (ft) = 51 / tick. (not including their items and AAs)
Mana returning to me was 37.25 + 4 (my FT from items) = 41.25 / tick.
That is almost enough to pay for the 165 mana cost of Terror if I refresh on drop. That is excluding cost for VoD and Shroud. Shroud can be passed on, VoD barely pays for itself so it's effects on myself can almost be ignored. (it's actually +25 mana over 20 ticks for me, so let's call it FT 1.25)
In this circumstance, mana was not an issue. I was using terror as efficiently as possible. And hate was not an issue. Members of group were a 360 AA mage, 160 AA bard, 100 AA ranger, 130 AA bst, 150 AA druid, and myself. I was also finding myself clicking off Sihala's Gift in order to make room for Rust debuff, SoNightmare, and VoD. This left one buff slot for Warlord's Barrier. Also was not using Cloak of Akheva or Shroud of the Leech.
It is worth mentioning that the group never had to rest with this setup.
I hope this information helps. Just a view from a tank starting out in common level 65 dungeons.
Edit: I have no AA points in FT yet. So that is excluding a potential 13 mana / tick. (3 from mental clarity, 10 from Mind Rejuvination)
Im a SK with 65 AAs and about 1600/4600/1910 AC/HP/mana all unbuffed.
No mana or hate issues to report. Mobs stick to me with a single assault and terror with melee/bashing. Not sure the total amount of mana/tick I had, but was keeping vortex and shroud of nightmare active, and maybe required rest once or twice on repops on top of group.
Mana returning to group was 18 (jb) + 8 (sb) + 6 (potg) + 15 (VoD) + 4 (ft) = 51 / tick. (not including their items and AAs)
Mana returning to me was 37.25 + 4 (my FT from items) = 41.25 / tick.
That is almost enough to pay for the 165 mana cost of Terror if I refresh on drop. That is excluding cost for VoD and Shroud. Shroud can be passed on, VoD barely pays for itself so it's effects on myself can almost be ignored. (it's actually +25 mana over 20 ticks for me, so let's call it FT 1.25)
In this circumstance, mana was not an issue. I was using terror as efficiently as possible. And hate was not an issue. Members of group were a 360 AA mage, 160 AA bard, 100 AA ranger, 130 AA bst, 150 AA druid, and myself. I was also finding myself clicking off Sihala's Gift in order to make room for Rust debuff, SoNightmare, and VoD. This left one buff slot for Warlord's Barrier. Also was not using Cloak of Akheva or Shroud of the Leech.
It is worth mentioning that the group never had to rest with this setup.
I hope this information helps. Just a view from a tank starting out in common level 65 dungeons.
Edit: I have no AA points in FT yet. So that is excluding a potential 13 mana / tick. (3 from mental clarity, 10 from Mind Rejuvination)
Last edited: