Underpowered Emberflow Tomes

[Manguadi]

Wait, what? Either you left out something that would make this less confusing, or the last line there contradicts everything before it.

Say for example, tier 9 fight X drops a 5% +aggro tome and tier 11 fight Y drops another 5% +aggro tome, and these tomes stack. But you say, if the more-difficult-to-get tome is equal to the easier-to-get tome, "risk v reward gets all screwy". And this is your reason for assuming higher tomes must get smaller. Therefore, the tome from fight Y should be smaller, say 1%? I'm not sure I follow how more difficulty for less reward is less screwy than an equal (but accumulative) reward.

Everything before the "If it's more difficult to get a second tome of equal value, then risk v reward gets all screwy." line is exactly what I would argue for there being no reason to assume that tomes in a line must get increasingly small.

The risk v reward comment was just a consequence of the previous.

Risk v reward is screwy because a 6% aggression tome + a 5% aggression tome is vastly different than either by themselves. Getting a 6% aggro tome is not as big a reward if you haven't already gotten the 5% tome. You have to design it with the previous tomes in mind, since they stack, but the reward is not nearly as large as it is designed to be.

The problem I was addressing was in the very first line, which is that the more points in a line, the more powerful the line. So designing progressively increasing tomes cannot last particularly long, but designing progressively decreasing tomes can. It's just that getting bigger is much worse for longevity, and does nothing for creating balanced rewards.

 

[Nodnal]

I will admit that I probably did not need to throw in the mez/charm/root tome in with those other two, so that one is probably fine as is. The rune one is still pretty underpowered, but can be cute in very small ways at certain times. The exhaustion one, however, is just not good at all. Reducing the downtime in between stances that are rarely used seems pretty bad. Is there anyway to make the exhaustion tome increase the duration of stances that drain until exhaustion by a set amount? Would an extra tick be too overpowered? I am not sure, but it doesn't seem that way really. For the most part, when I stance, I usually get healed with half stamina left, and another tank jumps on it at that point. The extra tick would allow a monk a bit longer to flop, and rogues and rangers get an extra shot or backstab depending on the tick delay.

 

[Eustace]

I think that's a pretty good idea - instead of decreasing exhaustion duration, adding one or two ticks to exhaustive stance drain would rock. (Especially since the only time I use an exhaustive stance is in "OH SHIT" mode when I'm using parry stance to gate the hell out of an area.)

 

[stope21]

The codexes of power were added so that xp that was going to unspent AAs could actually be put to SOME use. Other, more relevant Tomes should be usable before finishing these.

Codexes are EASY to get, 2k is nothing.

Should these EASY to get codexes of power be better than emberflow tomes? As a wizard, rogue, or any dps class for that matter, I would trade any emberflow tome for an additional codex of power. Furthermore, for most classes 90% of the emberflow tomes are inferior to codex's, after getting the one or two good tome per class, I would again make that trade.

The only thing that makes codexes more challenging to receive benefit from than an EF tome is the fact that they take more xp to fill. However, to beat emberflow you need to have most if not all of the codexes of power completed. This pretty much means exp is a trivial aspect to people who can obtain the emberflow tomes. Therefore, the increased difficulty codexes have to fill is a rather moot point.

For proof, please fomelo: Felyn, Manguadi, Paxx, Ringo, Eldorath, Rehn (Jenks is the only exception).


I agree it's valid point that tomes never get replaced, and gear without a clicky(despite it being end game), will possibly be replaced and be situational at best. With this taken into consideration, the tomes for most classes still are not worth the risk vs reward. Especially when comparing them to the codexes of power.

In a way, I feel that this is almost kind of a balancing act. The codexes of power favor dps and healers. Emberflow tomes favor tanks. Enchanters, again, are the odd man out.

 

[Melestav]

Most exhaustion stances are used sparingly due to the fact that being exhausted is horrible and makes you pretty powerless for the duration (you lose 25% to mitigation and damage iirc).

Slightly OT, but confirmation on this? I previously hadn't even heard of this, which is kinda odd.

 

[stope21]

I disagree with making tomes replace one another. I don't like the idea of completing a 5% aggression tome, and then having it be replaced by a 8% aggression tome that you again have to fill from the start. I'd prefer a 5% and a 3% tome. I veiw xp gained as something that should always benefit your character. Not something that can be replaced later.

However, I have heard an idea of making you choose which tome lines you can obtain and that limits you from other tome lines. This could be nice.

 

[stope21]

Slightly OT, but confirmation on this? I previously hadn't even heard of this, which is kinda odd.

His statement was in part an exaggeration. You're not powerless without stamina. But the loss for being exhausted for the classes that this is even occasionally applicable (which is like 4 classes) is generally not worth the benefit that is received.

It's typically used as a last second "parry, dodge, invuln, etc" stance. One that will save you from dying.
What are your chances of having 2 significantly near death situations in which this will have helped you?
What are the chances of needing that extra 1 minute of stamina regeneration, that gives you a slight amount more dps, that you would have lost a fight without?
Are the benefits gained from these significant? When you look at all the reasons and situations where this could be beneficial and weigh the benefits, the overall effect is tiny.

The class that has the most to gain from this is monks. But even for monks, having your invuln stance up again is only a convenience. It doesn't make the monk stronger, It won't make any fights easier. It may once or twice over your entire pulling career save you from dying. Thats about it.

Again, any monk would likely trade this for instead a 6th codex of power.

 

[Cyzaine]

Stuff about tome progression you assume we haven't thought of!

Tome progression is big in Ikisith. Not everything is finalized about them... but trust me when I say we have a VERY good idea of where we want these tomes to be, and risk versus reward for them. Tomes are forever. repeat that with me. Tomes are forever. Repeat that for another 5 months or so, and you'll be where I am now in terms of how I view tomes.

However, I have heard an idea of making you choose which tome lines you can obtain and that limits you from other tome lines. This could be nice.

Thoughts like this have been throw around in our early stages. Given the amount of grief people get over gnome or erudite racial bonuses, do you really think its a good idea to give a way to actually gimp your character irreversibly in game?

Codexes are EASY to get, 2k is nothing.

This is a truth. This is largely considered a mistake, but not something easily fixable. The lesson here was learned, mark my words. As I mentioned before, its my personal belief that ALL tomes are currently overpowered, but I also believe all Thaz gear is also overpowered, so perhaps its a good thing neither is my decision.

<insert class here> would likely trade this for instead a 6th codex of power.

It's a shame you don't have that option then.

You guys do have some points with the tome of exhaustion thingy. Keep any further discussion on that, and not on Tomes in general and other whiny exercises.

 

[Nodnal]

Slightly OT, but confirmation on this? I previously hadn't even heard of this, which is kinda odd.

Since Cyzaine wants us to focus on the Exhaustion tome, I think this would be nice if this were answered. I thought I had read/heard that you lost some sort of mitigation/avoidance/damage when you were exhausted. I heard it here http://www.shardsofdalaya.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8595&highlight=exhaustion a long time ago when I was snooping around for information regarding exhaustion (read Ginam's response). I have no clue if this is even true, or what the penalties are if exhausted. An official answer would be very nice.

How is this relevant? If there are no detriments of being exhausted, then the fact that you recover faster is even less powerful than I had thought beforehand. I still think the tome should add an extra tick or two to exhaustion type stances only, but if there are detrimental effects while be exhausted, then decreasing the time you are exhausted seems to be a decent idea if it were increased.

I guess 50-75% would be too overpowered for some classes (though I still disagree with this theory), but would 30-49% be overpowered as well? Even if you did recover 49% faster, the fight would be well over (if raiding an encounter) before you even go back out of exhaustion. However, if you use this type of style in an exp. group...you could recover faster and nix the exhaustion detriments (if they exist).

I think it does come down to those two options to keep the original intent of this tome in tact. However, I would definitely choose the longer duration of the stance over the quicker recover as a player as it makes the tome useful and, in my opinion, not overpowering by any means.

 

[stope21]

I appologize for not reading everything posted here thoroughly. However, I think you missed a tome in your OP, felyn.

Secrets of the Wee Folk (Increase innate death save) - 10 % increased chance of innate death save (fatal hit dodge)

 

[Nodnal]

I appologize for not reading everything posted here thoroughly. However, I think you missed a tome in your OP, felyn.

Secrets of the Wee Folk (Increase innate death save) - 10 % increased chance of innate death save (fatal hit dodge)

Yes, I did. I will add it to the OP. Thanks~

 

[stope21]

Thoughts like this have been throw around in our early stages. Given the amount of grief people get over gnome or erudite racial bonuses, do you really think its a good idea to give a way to actually gimp your character irreversibly in game?

You're not gimping your character, you are focuses on a particular ability of your character to boost rather then another. I agree it would be tough to balance properly, but it could be cool. Other games do this through "speccing." For example, as a cleric you can either increase your tanking ability, or increase your dps abilities. This could be very good, but this very good could take a lot of effort.

The biggest points people made from the gnome/erudite bonuses were two things:
1)The choice you make is mostly irreversible.
2)Due to the timing of the choice, and the lack of end game knowledge, your choice is uneducated. An example is High-Elfs. Being flat out immune to charm and receiving a significant bonus to not being mezzed seem like some pretty powerful end game abilities. However, being as there are not really instances of these effects being used, these abilities are mostly useless.

To prevent this, you can:
1) Make the choices in some way reversable.
2) Educate people to the best of your ability.

Balancing is always going to be an issue, no matter what.

As I mentioned before, its my personal belief that ALL tomes are currently overpowered, but I also believe all Thaz gear is also overpowered, so perhaps its a good thing neither is my decision.

Thaz
Thaz gear gets better, but the encounters do not. As you get more thaz gear, the encounters actually get easier. It appears the rewards for the teir are rated closer to the basic immaculate level, instead of closer to that of an upgraded aug'd peice. This could be fixed by increasing the difficulty of some encounters.
Codexes
The tomes give you the same benefit from tome to tome, but as you progressively complete tomes, the next one gets easier and easier to complete. This was combated by exp penalties for aa's. Tomes however, don't suffer exp penalties over time.

 

[Manguadi]

Tome progression is big in Ikisith. Not everything is finalized about them... but trust me when I say we have a VERY good idea of where we want these tomes to be, and risk versus reward for them. Tomes are forever. repeat that with me. Tomes are forever. Repeat that for another 5 months or so, and you'll be where I am now in terms of how I view tomes.

Each item I upgrade is a larger increase than almost any single tome from emberflow. It doesn't particularly matter that a bonus is forever, for the same reason you're never going to suddenly downgrade your chest slot. Each item upgrade is just an improvement to a slot; the slot itself has the same longevity as the tome and it continues to improve.

Why would we not consider tomes the same as new item slots?

 

[Nodnal]

You guys do have some points with the tome of exhaustion thingy. Keep any further discussion on that, and not on Tomes in general and other whiny exercises.

Guys, could you start your own thread about how we view tomes and progression, etc? Zak wanted us to focus on the Exhaustion tome since that one needs the most work out of the ones I posted about. Not that I mind the slight side tracking, but it was requested to stay on topic.

Any ideas or suggestions for that tome should be addressed in this thread.

 

[stope21]

You guys do have some points with the tome of exhaustion thingy. Keep any further discussion on that, and not on Tomes in general and other whiny exercises.

The best way to balance them would be to rate each tome on a few scales.
1) Number of classes that can receive significant benefit from the tome.
2) Benefit received for the average user of the tome.
3) Rarity of the tome.

Analysis:
1)The more people who can use it, the worse it should be.
2)The higher the benefit for the average user of the tome, the worse it should be.
3)The rarer the tome is, the better it should be.


When ranking all the tomes in this fashion, the other weakest tomes I feel are:
1)Exhaustian
2)Advanced Foe Management (Increase root, mesmerize, and charm duration) - 10 % increased duration
3)Rune tome

I can break each down into why, but I feel it shuold be pretty obvious.

I'm not speaking about whether I feel these should be upped or not. I'm just clarifying the order of worth of these tomes.

The one tome I do not know how to rank is "The Secret of Wee Folk."
10 % increased chance of innate death save (fatal hit dodge).
Does that mean it only dodges the one hit that would have killed you, but the next hit that connects will probably kill you anyways b/c you are still low life?

If so then it's one of the weakest.
If it were a DB (heals you to full upon triggering), that would be a lot more reasonable and would not make the list.

 

[Nodnal]

Since Cyzaine wants us to focus on the Exhaustion tome, I think this would be nice if this were answered. I thought I had read/heard that you lost some sort of mitigation/avoidance/damage when you were exhausted. I heard it here http://www.shardsofdalaya.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8595&highlight=exhaustion a long time ago when I was snooping around for information regarding exhaustion (read Ginam's response). I have no clue if this is even true, or what the penalties are if exhausted. An official answer would be very nice.

How is this relevant? If there are no detriments of being exhausted, then the fact that you recover faster is even less powerful than I had thought beforehand. I still think the tome should add an extra tick or two to exhaustion type stances only, but if there are detrimental effects while be exhausted, then decreasing the time you are exhausted seems to be a decent idea if it were increased.

I guess 50-75% would be too overpowered for some classes (though I still disagree with this theory), but would 30-49% be overpowered as well? Even if you did recover 49% faster, the fight would be well over (if raiding an encounter) before you even go back out of exhaustion. However, if you use this type of style in an exp. group...you could recover faster and nix the exhaustion detriments (if they exist).

I think it does come down to those two options to keep the original intent of this tome in tact. However, I would definitely choose the longer duration of the stance over the quicker recover as a player as it makes the tome useful and, in my opinion, not overpowering by any means.

This may or may not have been spammed off the radar, but I am curious to the answer. Also, are we allowed to know about how many AA the EF tomes are worth? It seems to be 80-100aa, but they used to be 50ish (when they very first came out).

 

[Nodnal]

Another way to fix the Exhaustion tome would be to change it to a very small innate stamina regen, or make it so the time between changing stances is reduced (I think it is 15 seconds between stances, or 12). The latter suggestion was offered by Manguadi, and even though I don't think it would help classes as much as monks and rangers, the idea is still something that could be worked with.

 

[Manguadi]

Stamina regen is not possible.

 

[Nodnal]

Maybe actual stamina regen is not possible (so I have heard, still not sure how this works 100%), but I am sure there is a way to mimic innate stamina regen. Even 2-3 more points of regen a tick would be nice.

 

[stope21]

Or increase the size of your stamina pool.