Tis the Season

[diolas]

******************************************
Disclaimer: The following contains what may be viewed as 'Dramatic' material. Reader discression is advised. All quotes are presented in the order they were sent/recieved other than the last bit where I summarized. My apologies go out to Ramblo for turning him into a poster boy.
******************************************

** Staff edit: Read the last post of the thread for our official response **

Christmas Eve, everyone is busy with family and there aren't a whole lot of people online to group with. I decided to head to cmal1 to get some xp. I've been frequenting this particular place quite a bit of late, in the hopes of getting my cmal gloves as well as a few other upgrades for my characters. The xp is decent although the pulls can be a bit dangerous. I do die from time to time, but it's not a big deal. I make enough in coin to cover the 100pp rez fee. Rebuff, port back, plow on.

For those of you unfamiliar with the zone, Cmal (or Cyrtho Malath) is a one group zone. You are limited to having 6 people in the zone at any given time. If someone tries to enter the zone when it's full, they will be unable to enter, or be booted outside the zone. Cmal is a progressive dungeon with easy/medium/hard difficulties. Needless to say, I was in the easy (cmal1) portion of the dungeon.

On this fateful night, I was going about my business of xp'n. I usually try and get a group in there because the kills are faster and safer. The only mobs I cannot duo in cmal1 are the last two nameds. This gives me lots of targets to run through. The respawn in the zone is roughly 2 hours so I usually do one pass and then leave, maybe coming back later if I feel like it. Suddenly, I get a shout in the zone (the following quotes are accurate and in chronological order, except for that last bit when I summarized).

Shurley shouts, 'are u guys really gunna use cmal?'
You shout, 'uhm, yes'
Shurley shouts, 'u guys pvp flagged?'

So let me get this straight, you're thinking of killing me to get me out of the zone? Here's a tip: if you're looking for someone to help you out, don't be a dick to them.

You shout, 'Hey shurley, Go :censored: yourself.'
Kykle tells you, 'anyway we could get the zone plz?'
Kykle tells you, 'not trying to be a dick'
Kykle tells you, 'just asking nicely'
You told Kykle, 'Asking if I'm pvp flagged is asking nicely? hahahahahaha'
Kykle tells you, 'that is surley'
Kykle tells you, 'not me'
Kykle tells you, '<--- isnt shurley'
Kykle tells you, 'we have a full group that would like to come in'
Kykle tells you, 'if it would at all possable'
You told Kykle, 'you'll have to wait, I'm enjoying myself here. Go do catacombs or something. And take shurley with you.'
Kykle tells you, 'ok, well thanks anways'

And that's the end of that, right?
Wrong.
A few minutes later their entire group stormed into the Cmal1 area and proceeded to commit genocide on any Snakes they found, apparently Kykle and co. 'are' trying to be dicks after all. Keep in mind that the respawn is about 2 hours; their solution is simple enough, kill the only mobs I can kill and I'll have no choice but to leave. I don't have a lot of choices at that point. Rather than give up so quickly however, I decided to petition it via the form of a forum post. This post was immediately moved to a place where few can look for reasons not revealed to me, but I digress.

/who
[65 Prelate] Asura (Dark Elf) <Ruin>
[65 Magus] Tekas (Unknown) <Legacy>
[65 Coercer] Kykle (High Elf) <Legacy>
[ANONYMOUS] Shurley <Legacy>
[ANONYMOUS] Myke <Phoenix Rising>
[65 Thaumaturge] Eyke (Erudite) <Phoenix Rising>
There are 6 players in Cyrtho Malath.

/who all starfall
Players on server:
[ANONYMOUS] Linken <Legacy>
[65 Transcendent] Rufio (Iksar) <Legacy>
2 players online

While in the middle of writing a petition/post regarding this, Shurley stopped by to say hello.

[Sat Dec 24 22:32:33 2005] Shurley says, 'hey'
[Sat Dec 24 22:32:47 2005] Shurley grabs hold of Eyke and begins to dance with him.
[Sat Dec 24 22:33:24 2005] Shurley says, 'magi +?'
[Sat Dec 24 22:33:34 2005] Shurley begins to cast a spell.
[Sat Dec 24 22:33:39 2005] Shurley says, 'w/e gl'
LOADING, PLEASE WAIT...
You have entered Everfrost.

/who all cmal
[65 Prelate] Asura (Dark Elf) <Ruin>
[ANONYMOUS] Shurley <Legacy>
[65 Coercer] Kykle (High Elf) <Legacy>
[ANONYMOUS] Linken <Legacy>
[65 Transcendent] Rufio (Iksar) <Legacy>
[65 Magus] Tekas (Unknown) <Legacy>

So not only do you have the nerve to kill the only mobs I was capable of getting my xp from, you also have the nerve to abuse an AE spell and punt me out of the zone. I suppose I should thank you for not sending me off to PoA, given your attitude however I'm quite surprised you didn't.

Shurley tells you, 'gl'
You told Shurley, 'enjoy your ban'
Shurley tells you, 'for u sitting afk'
Shurley tells you, 'ina zone doing nothing'
Shurley tells you, 'if u where killing'
Shurley tells you, 'i'd understand'
You told Shurley, 'right, so you mowing down all my mobs had nothing to do with it. You're pathetic.'

A number of weeks ago, some of you may remember this particular incident. Rambler, in a brief lapse of judgement, trained a helpless group and wiped them. Everyone has lapses of judgement from time to time and he was immediately apologetic.

Training people is pretty retarded. Ramblo acted like an idiot. He also accepted full responsibility, aplogized without being asked, and accepted his punishment gracefully. This thread is now closed.

Rambler was banned for his actions, even though he was quite sorry for having acted irrationally even apologizing without being asked to. Why was he permanently banned? Because it was Banfest? Sure, he should have been punished. A lengthy suspension perhaps? I doubt he'll ever do it again. Some of you are probably asking why I'm bringing up the past. It has to do with the light sentence recieved by the people who did this. Shurley got a slap on the wrist (suspension) and the rest were free to go.

You told GM-Liam, 'It's nice to know what's going on from time to time.'
GM-Liam tells you, 'I bet. I suspended Shurley, due to past precedants in suspension set by Wiz and others. That's it, and I'm done with this issue.'
You told GM-Liam, 'GM-Liam is not online at this time'
You told GM-Liam, 'GM-Liam is not online at this time'

Now let's do some role reversal. Let's pretend Ramblo were a level 65 wizard that had an AE port. He's quite upset people are killing the mobs that his group was camping, so he goes up and AE ports them to Everfrost. It's banfest, so let's ban him. When you boil it down, it's pretty much the same thing. There are a couple differences to be pointed out however.
1) The entire group was working in tandem to kick me out of the zone; that wasn't successful so Shurley tp'd me out. Ramblo acted alone.

2) It was Banfest when Ramblo screwed up, it's not banfest now so people are allowed to get away with things like this... right?

3) Ramblo was very apologetic and knew he had done something wrong. I'm pretty sure he even offered to pay for all of their rezzes. Shurley and the rest of that group was not apologetic and don't feel like they did anything wrong. The only apologies I recieved were from people affiliated with them (Legacy).

4) The members of the offending party are, for the most part, in Legacy. Ramblo is in Phoenix Rising. But don't worry about this last part, I don't blame guilds; I blame people.

I am fully aware that SoD doesn't recognize camps, Zodium had the courtesy of reminding me of this fact when I complained about the leniency of their sentencing, especially given what Ramblo had to go through.

Admin-Zodium tells you, 'Hey'
Admin-Zodium tells you, 'I just came back to a whole boatload of drama. I heard Shurley already apologized in the PR channel, but I just wanted to extend an official apology from Legacy for what happened.'

In other words, Shurley is saving her own skin...

You told Admin-Zodium, 'I don't blame your guild, don't worry about it.'
You told Admin-Zodium, 'I am concerned about the light sentencing tho. Is there any way I can discuss this rather than the forums?'
Admin-Zodium tells you, 'Given precedents from Wiz, there was not much else we could do.'
Admin-Zodium tells you, 'I don't feel comfortable establishing precedents that pretty much directly contradict Wiz's punishments.'

6. Adjust your behaviour
Show proper conduct in dealing with other players. Deliberate training, killstealing, griefing, excessive vulgarity or otherwise being a prick to other players will result in severe repercussions to yourself. We try to maintain a friendly attitude and have no place for the socially lacking.

Is anyone else starting to see a double standard?

Admin-Zodium tells you, 'When he gets back from his Christmas break I'm going to reevaluate the stupidly low suspension sentences we give.'
You told Admin-Zodium, 'That's basically what Liam said. I don't like it, and I'm pretty sure I can find some forum notes to back me up on it. Shurley gets a slap on the wrist and everyone else gets a stern talking to. You can see how I might be a little upset.'
Admin-Zodium tells you, 'Indeed.'
Admin-Zodium tells you, 'If you want to provide some substantiation for a longer punishment, PM them to me on the forums'

Can I choose which GM I'd like to consult about this?

You told Admin-Zodium, 'I'm too drunk to really get too involved in this now... too much egg nog. =P I'm usually very thorough in these matters. You'll here back from me one way or another in the next few days.'
Admin-Zodium tells you, 'The trouble is that we ban fairly liberally, but when it comes to that grey area between ban and no punishment, we tend to be too lenient'

When it suits you.

Admin-Zodium tells you, 'This obviously doesn't warrant a ban, since sitting AFK in a hardcapped zone when you know people want in is pretty bad to begin with, but it also obviously needs some manner of punishment'
You told Admin-Zodium, 'I wasn't afk, I sat there and watched her run down and punt me out.'
Admin-Zodium tells you, 'Well, the difference between you being AFK or not to him is your level of activity shown '
You told Admin-Zodium, 'Look at it like this, I was in a zone with very few mobs I can kill. Someone comes in and mows down all the mobs I can kill. Are you suggesting I move to cmal2 and start attacking because they killed all my mobs?'
Admin-Zodium tells you, 'As you well know, we don't recognize camps.'
You told Admin-Zodium, 'Of course, and you also posted that abusing Mass AE's will result in bans.'
You told Admin-Zodium, 'err, mass Teleports.'
Admin-Zodium tells you, 'Granted, but this is a special occasion'
Admin-Zodium tells you, 'If you took 10 people and sat AFK in DHK to cockblock a raid, I wouldn't lift a finger if they mass TPed you out'
Admin-Zodium tells you, ''

So, now you agree that this is a special case. This means that they had no right to KS me in this particular zone, right? It's a two hour respawn, I have rights too, don't I?

You told Admin-Zodium, 'I was there first. They had no right to do that to me.'
You told Admin-Zodium, 'They 'cockblocked' me from xp'n.'
Admin-Zodium tells you, 'I don't agree with Wiz's policy on not recognizing camps, but I enforce all rules uniformly.'
Admin-Zodium tells you, 'A mob is a mob, and that's the extent we recognize any manner of "right to kill" to.'

I guess I don't after all...

You told Admin-Zodium, 'Your argument is very weak. On the other hand, it's nice to know which side you've taken before I start posting. Good night to you sir.'
Admin-Zodium tells you, 'Fuck off'
Admin-Zodium tells you, 'I almost booted Shurley from Legacy for this.'
You told Admin-Zodium, 'I'll bet'
It will take you about 30 seconds to prepare your camp.
It will take about 25 more seconds to prepare your camp.
It will take about 20 more seconds to prepare your camp.
Admin-Zodium tells you, 'Ask someone for the logs.'
It will take about 15 more seconds to prepare your camp.
It will take about 10 more seconds to prepare your camp.
It will take about 5 more seconds to prepare your camp.
You told Admin-Zodium, 'Good night.'

A number of months ago, AE teleports were misused by some players. This was of course petitioned and the mess was straightened out. At that time, it was declared that further abuse of AE teleports would result in bans. No tolerance, I believe was the policy.

So, the breakdown. I am in a zone xp'n like I normally do. This zone is restricted to 6 players which apparently warrants it special circumstances.

Admin-Zodium tells you, 'Granted, but this is a special occasion'

Of course, these special circumstances don't apply to me.

Admin-Zodium tells you, 'A mob is a mob, and that's the extent we recognize any manner of "right to kill" to.'

Rummaging through all the bullshit, one can only come the conclusion that I have no rights compared to these other players. Well what makes them so special? Is it the tags they wear or the people they associate with?

Admin-Zodium tells you, 'If you took 10 people and sat AFK in DHK to cockblock a raid, I wouldn't lift a finger if they mass TPed you out'
Admin-Zodium tells you, ''

To make a more accurate analogy, me and my 10 friends are xp'n in DHK. Some raid party walks in and thinks they own the place. They tell us to leave so they can bring in their entire raid and then threaten violence if we don't. We decide to stay; after all, we were here first. So, in an attempt to encourage us to leave, the raid party plows through all the mobs we can kill. When that doesn't work, they decide to TL us out. And you wouldn't lift a finger to help us?

To be honest, the only reason I'm bothered by all this is because of the inconsistencies. One of my friends (Ramblo) gets the screw while others are able to walk. Giving such arbitrary reasoning as 'banfest' really doesn't cut it, otherwise the message you're sending is "go ahead and be an asshole, just as long as it isn't between these hours(days, etc...)". Way to put the 'ass' into asinine.

 

[Hostyle]

I apologized I agree I was retarded, sorry. Your definitely blowing this way out of proportion. Plus i ported you to Everfrost I didn't train or kill you. I could of ported you to somewhere more hostile like PoAir so I wasn't as assholish as I could have been. I was wrong sorry what do you want me to say I'd take it back if I could. Your also putting very bias interpretations of stuff. Ramblo's actions don't quite compare to what I've done here, unless I forgot the part where I trained people countlessly, no offense I love ramblo =).

 

[kineldar]

EDITED: Edited for Public Relations reasons. Certain individuals associated with certain annonymous organizations wish that I do not get involved in certain matters no matter how strongly i may feel about them.

 

[Hostyle]

Lucky i am not an admin, for i would risk making several people mad, to include several current admins, and ban the entire group involved. No matter how much i liked them.
just my 2cp

Thank god your not, I donno how many people would play this server with your lack of sympathy. He was not XP killed or trained. He was AFK in 6 person only zone. I fucked up in not contacting a GM, I was completely wrong in my action I know... Look at the facts not the heartfelt emotions invoked.

 

[kineldar]

EDIT: Edited for the same reason as above post.

 

[Hostyle]

Emotions tend to elicit the most true response.

First off, in a psychological point of view thats completely incorrect. Try telling that to a court. Don't act like i'm this hostile person who blattenly goes out of their way to screw people. I'm very helpful and very kind, in this instance me and my group thought we where in the right.

 

[Allielyn]

Edit: Deleted at Tapein's request

 

[Hostyle]

It didn't sound like he was AFK to me. . . you had a conversation with him before you TL'd him.

Ya about 20mins after I talked to him, this is another reason why this post is such bs, its bias it doesn't state true facts according to the timeline and why we did what we did. I also tried to talk to him before I tl'd him out he was sitting not moving not talking back for 15mins before i ported. tia

 

[tekaskeeperoftheages]

It didn't sound like he was AFK to me. . . you had a conversation with him before you TL'd him.

Shurley talked to him, he didn't say anything back, thats not much of a conversation imo.

 

[morph]

And that's the end of that, right?
Wrong.
A few minutes later their entire group stormed into the Cmal1 area and proceeded to commit genocide on any Snakes they found, apparently Kykle and co. 'are' trying to be dicks after all.

We couldnt get our tank and one of our DPS into the zone. With out a tank cmal 1 was the only experience we could get at the time. We had spent a good amount of time to get there. If your allowed to duo a hard caped zone why can't we quad one? There are no "camps" so pretty much we did nothing wrong here.

Rather than give up so quickly however, I decided to petition it via the form of a forum post.

Is it at all possable that from our point of view, it looked like you were afk in the zone, and possably just afk to piss us off? How are we to know you will come back to the game in 15 min? Not sure what might make us think this .....

You shout, 'Hey shurley, Go :censored: yourself.

When i saw your characters myke and eyke (ps: maybe we need a name nurf?) they wernt even in the same area of the zone, nor were they near any snakes. This could also lead people to think that you were just trying to grief us.

They tell us to leave so they can bring in their entire raid and then threaten violence if we don't.

You were blue when Shurley asked that. So your telling me that her asking if you were PVP flaged, when you wernt, scared you? My goodness, she might even stand next to you and emote you to death....

Anyways had I known that you were posting on the boards about it then I would have left you alone. From my point of view it looked as if you were griefing the whole group by going afk(you were afk, just posting). I think that the punishment was in line with the crime. Porting an afk person out of the zone so you can get your group in there to exp. If you include a few more facts than your bias post includes then its possable that is all we were doing...

 

[Liam]

Send an e-mail to Wiz. This isn't up for public discussion.

 

[zodium]

I'm returning this thread to the main forums, but leaving it locked (I have no intention of fueling what appears to be a heir to Lokdar's drama throne). Primarily so the staff can make a public response to this, and secondarily so that this is not simply swept under the rug. If you want to play "Know thy server rules and precedents" with me, you got it.

[First of all, this matter is over and there is no more to decide about it, this is merely a defense of that decision. If you have a valid complaint about my ability to act fairly as an administrator, as you seem to subtly hint in a few places, like bias or other corruption, you may take it to Wiz; otherwise, you either take it to me or leave it unsaid. End of story.]

Now let's get on to the meat of this: Your main arguments. Let me start this off by saying that I am sympathetic to you here. Shurley was out of line, there's no question about that. The issue you seem to be taking is that I refuse to give you special treatment compared to what others have in the past, and that I refuse to establish a precedent that would make no sense in the light of earlier punishments for much more serious offenses, like training a raid.

This would have been a complete nobrainer if you hadn't been a drunk dumbass who was acting like an irrational dick. In fact, you waste no time, you get on with the dumbassery almost right away:

Rather than give up so quickly however, I decided to petition it via the form of a forum post.

This was just idiotic. The forums are not here so that you may go and create drama about the great injustices committed against you, they are here so people may discuss the game in a way that does not potentially send the server into yet another high end guild drama zone; nor are they here so that you may pick up Lokdar's banner and beat the drums of war against the staff. Suffice to say that there will never be another Lokdar, and if one does appear, he won't be here for very long. You were not "petition/posting", you were drunk and decided to get confrontational and started making drama. Like I said:

If you had had the tact to deal with this through the proper channels, you would not have appeared AFK, for all intents and purposes, in a hardcapped zone where a group wanted in. Yes, they were way out of line, but nothing you did served any purpose except to fuel the situation.

Next you bring up that they were killing "your" mobs. However, and as I said I don't agree with this, we do not recognize camps. If you have proof that they engaged and killed a mob after you had, then I would have taken appropriate action. Yeah, they were being dicks, but the main offender was also punished. "Being a dick" on a single occasion does not necessarily warrant a goddamn ban. It's not like he trained you to death or dispelled all your permas. You lost nothing but spawns you had no recognized right to in the first place until you were teleported out.

Now, you seem to have assumed that "this is a special case" means that it is in your favor. Let me clarify: It is not. Sitting AFK for 20 minutes in cmalath with a group waiting to come in, writing up a forum post while drunk does mitigate what Shurley did to you tremendously. It is simply not acceptable, and I would gladly have removed you by way of /summon had they petitioned about it. The circumstances DO apply to you, they just apply in the other party's favor - why would you assume otherwise?

Lastly, your "more accurate analogy" is a ridiculous. When you were teleported out, you were not XPing, you were sitting on your ass, solidly AFK, by all means available to the offender. As I correctly said, it is quite akin to bringing 10 people to a major raid zone, then all of them going AFK for 20 minutes while a raid force is trying to gather.

Rummaging through all the bullshit, one can only come the conclusion that I have no rights compared to these other players.

Well, good job rummaging through all the bullshit, but the conclusion here is actually that you have exactly the same rights as these other players, for better or worse.

Moreover, I find it interesting that you bring Ramblo into this. It's of course quite irrelevant: Either you're incapable of understanding what "Banfest" signified, despite my, if I may say so, excellent front-page elaboration on this matter, or you're dissatisfied with what Banfest was, in which case we'll simply have to agree to disagree there.

If you wish to discuss this further, I will gladly do it either in IRC or over a PM, but if you or anyone ever starts turning our forums into your personal drama theater again, we will ban you, permanently. Everyone may consider this the final warning for forums drama. If you have an issue with a staffer's ability to act responsibly, take it up privately with me. If you have an issue with my ability to act responsibly, take it up privately with Wiz. If you hate the competing guild with a passion, WORK IT OUT SOMEWHERE ELSE.

Thank you. That said, we will review the rules and possibly clean the slate as far as precedents go in the near future, but I will not start contradicting our previous decisions because you feel slighted, diolas. That would be the reverse of fair.