Tiers 9 through 11 balancing (See post #4 for current status)

Thorlash/Kraun, officer CW T12 raid guild.

In my opinion nothing was wrong with the content the way it was. On tier, all encounters were very challenging and took the right amount of time learning the strats and getting the gear/skill required to defeat the encounters.

After months of killing the same encounters over and over, and increasing the overall strength of your guild, the encounters naturally become easier. This is how the game should work.

If content becomes too easy, that means the guild is ready for new content and is most likely rotting all the loot anyways.

This is where NEW CONTENT should be released, not tweak old content and make it harder. This would be a great opportunity to revamp some of the older and unused zones.

I don't think void worm or saitha have even been killed since these "changes" went into effect? Correct me if im wrong.
 
Cambrai/Companions

From a conversation with Tao last night, here are some thoughts on Animation vs. Klikil.

The question was, which was tougher for us? I have to split this into learning the strat and farming the mob.

Learning the strat: Animation was a lot tougher. We had a lot more attempts working out the start for Animation trying to figure out why people were suddenly exploding, why the tank would just fall over dead, or what is this craziness at 20%. For Klikil, I think we killed him on our third attempt.

Farming: Probalby Klikil is slightly tougher just because of the variables in trying to keep all the adds under control at the very start of the fight. Animation is pretty easy now once we know what to do and people pay attention. But I would judge them to be similar in difficultly. Once Klikil's rats are under control and he is slowed, it's a pretty easy fight.

Loots: I think they are about even and solid for this tier. We still need stuff from each mob, especially the healer face off Animation and robe from Klikil. The only rots we usually have is the Monk/Beast fist. Although we are moving in strong alts for the dps weapons just because we are pretty light on melee dps in our raid setup at the moment and our main raiders already have the weapons.
 
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Xoranath said:
From Tao....
Things to be discussed thoroughly, but not just yet:

Thazeran's Tower lower wing timers (this will be a long talk, but I don't think many players understand how the timers work yet)

I don't want to spoil anything for anyone, but I would like to discuss this more in depth Tao. From our experience there is only two possibilities on the timers and since we were there while Jumbers/Slaar were there watching/tweaking things the first couple of times I'm not sure which is correct. But in either case the timers are too short. Unless this last closure of Thaz fixed a bug that was affecting the timers....I would like to discuss this in tells or PM's if possible.

Xoranath, RL of Companions(T10)
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If you'd like to go ahead and begin the talk about these, I welcome you to do so. Having some player input before I start talking about them is ideal, and it's a good way to avoid the conversaion being another "this is why it's fine and doesn't need to change" one-way talk. I know there are some minor adjustments being made to them, so there's that. I also think there's several things related to those timers that make the lower wings really attractive raid options that have gone unnoticed, but I want to hear opinions from you guys before saying anything more.
 
On our attempts on the water wing mini, he had 10ish adds of different classes, we tryed to aoe them dead b4 boss became active (RIP blazewind gloves), we tryed mezing a few and killing a few b4 boss became active, we tryed preslowing and debuffing boss b4 he became active while tanking adds.
Each attempt ended the same, about 20sec into the engage the boss becomes active and hits for 4k ish insta killing anyone he agros.

Iam assuming the stats on the mobs were just too high initatially and its been fixed but those attempts were enough for fwf to completely lose interest in the zone and beta testing the events.

After a wipe you seemed to have enough time for 1 more rez/rebuff and attempt b4 the timer would kick you out on your 3rd attempt and force you to reclear.
I dont think its possible to reproduce the amount of dps we had in our raids during that time with the playerbase and gear changes that are active now. We were Waay overtier with prob 60tomes average per player and full 1.2 charms and at least 60% with vah backs.
 
Tarutao said:
If you'd like to go ahead and begin the talk about these, I welcome you to do so. Having some player input before I start talking about them is ideal, and it's a good way to avoid the conversaion being another "this is why it's fine and doesn't need to change" one-way talk. I know there are some minor adjustments being made to them, so there's that. I also think there's several things related to those timers that make the lower wings really attractive raid options that have gone unnoticed, but I want to hear opinions from you guys before saying anything more.
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(Xoranath, Co-Raid Leader, Companions T10)

Ok, as I said earlier, we have tried Thaz during the first couple of weeks and since there was some tweaking, but not since this last down time. During the first few times we were in Thaz and trying both the Water/Frost wing and the Fire wing the timers may have been adjusted while we were in there by Slaar or Jumbers so that they could see more of what we were doing and how things went. When killing trash the timers would get lower so every kill gave you more time. Shoot ahead a couple of more weeks and when we tied the Fire wing again(have paused doing the Water/Frost wing due to not figuring out the strat for the mini yet) the timers did not go down when we killed trash. The original way we could get one or more attempts on the mini before the timer reset. Now like I said Slaar and Jumbers were there originally and my have "done" something so we had more time. On the newer attempts we were lucky if we got to the mini without the timer resetting. In the original tries we were very close to taking the Fire mini down, but after the last few attempts it is like beating your head against a wall and Anvyl and I have decided to focus on Outer Sanctum and our continued focus on killing Fer'din and Prime in Yclist. If one or two mess ups(partial wipe/total wipe) happen clearing the trash in Thaz you may as well start completely over or leave.
And once again, thank you for the discussion.
 
It's very possible that time was added by a staff member in response to something not working properly. That was done a couple time in the early attempts in the lower earth wing.

The sentiment about "one or two wipes" being enough to run out the timer doesn't sound right, but then again, the last time I watched a raid try the earth mini, it took them 34 minutes to engage after they wiped. If you take a full half hour to recover from a wipe, then yes, 2 wipes is probably going to make the wing (and later, Tur`ruj) undoable.
 
Tarutao said:
It's very possible that time was added by a staff member in response to something not working properly. That was done a couple time in the early attempts in the lower earth wing.

The sentiment about "one or two wipes" being enough to run out the timer doesn't sound right, but then again, the last time I watched a raid try the earth mini, it took them 34 minutes to engage after they wiped. If you take a full half hour to recover from a wipe, then yes, 2 wipes is probably going to make the wing (and later, Tur`ruj) undoable.
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I'm talking about fairly quick reengaing, having bound outside Thaz in GD. Or even partial wipes with quick rezzing. I did kind of think that Slaar or Jumbers added time, but the addition at times seemed linked to mobs. If not though then the "set" time on the timer is too low for on tier groups. Like I said before, maybe adding 1/3 to 1/2 as much time to the timer would make it more palatable to guilds wanting to try Thaz. I really like the zone. I did not get to raid old Thaz and only went to the 2nd, lower Thaz once. It was one of my favorite zones on Live. Hope this is helping....

Xoranath the Long Winded, cleric of Companions(T10)
 
It's been a rough RL couple of weeks, but I figured I'd at least update you on the current things being looked at:

(1) The Ancient Guardians -- I've received some reports from other staffers that some players have said this encounter is "still absurdly difficult" now. I didn't get to see the attempts, and nobody said anything about those attempts to me here in this thread, so I can't get anything out of those reports. The tank damage that 2 of the mobs do looks on paper to be quite reasonable. The third mob's damage seems fine to me, too, but since it's not standard "melee you in the face" damage and it seems fine on paper, I'd like to hear/see something from the people doing the mob (about the whole fight, but this part particularly). This encounter has basically 1 mechanic beyond "do damage to my target", and that mechanic isn't even reported to be malfunctioning, so it's tank damage that is left as a concern (since aggregate HP was already checked into and unchanged).

(2) The Void Worm -- This fight is another fight with one interesting mechanic: the disease debuff mechanic. There are actually 3 issues to consider with this mechanic. First, it takes a lot of effort to get rid of all of the disease counters. This is by design; it's the main part of the fight. That said, I think a reduction of the number of counters is appropriate. I have numbers I'm happy with, but those changes aren't yet in and won't be until I make sure I don't break something else in the process. Second, there seems to be a UI display error regarding the debuff which explains the disconnect between the AE damage raids should be receiving given the information their UI is providing them and the amount of damage they were actually taking. This is proving difficult to rectify, but I trust we'll find a workaround or solution soon. Third, in the process of looking into this fight, at least one method to trivialize the fight was found, and while I think I've found a solution to this, I need to finish making sure that nothing else in game is dependent on this method.

(3) Tar`loc Tribe -- Thirty minutes for this tribe seems appropriate given the location and ease of starting over and trying again. If you disagree with this statement, please say something now before I make the timer exactly 30 minutes.

(4) Ok`tar Tribe -- This tribe appears to have been changed only with regards to two aspects of the fight that stopped functioning for some reason. The encounter as it stands now is, unless I'm mistaken, now to be done the way it was originally done. This tribe is an optional tribe, can be circumvented by using invisibility, and is intended to be "you get one chance at this tribe". Further discussion on this tribe is certainly welcome and encouraged, but any requests for changes cannot fall into the "you made it too hard" category since it's now doable in the same way it was originally done with the same difficulty.

(5) Enchanter Apprentice Klikil is also under current consideration.


Tao edit: Edited to change "HP" to "aggregate HP" in the last sentence about The Ancient Guardians. They still add up to the same amount.
 
Appreciate the time and effort Tao, we all know that RL can get in the way of our fun at times.

Xoranath, Co-Raid leading cleric of Companions
 
Partial success on The Void Worm. I'm driving to Texas for a long weekend this weekend, though, so while I hope to get all of the things specific to this fight handled beforehand, I won't be around to see any raids attempt the boss for several days to make sure nothing serious breaks.

As far as the UI display error, I think we've found a common thread that might lead to a solution soon (soon as in, no ETA on this from me ever, but I've got a hunch). Thanks to Nwaij for the really clever idea that it could be also related to High Warden Ansaag. That was kinda out of left field, but I think he's right.
 
Part of the High Warden strat was always "Look for the message, don't trust your buff-bar"
 
The good news is that since the Void Worm's debuff isn't proc-based it shouldn't have the exploitable mechanic that High Warden has (had? has this been fixed?) with the Ice Elemental Illusion/Werefrog Illusion ;)
 
Dimmi said:
Part of the High Warden strat was always "Look for the message, don't trust your buff-bar"
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Yeah, and at least for now, it'll have to be that way for The Void Worm. I've been green-lighted on a few changes, but until you see something here and/or patch notes about it, assume no changes are in yet since it'll probably take me 2 tries to get it fixed properly.
 
Tarutao said:
It's been a rough RL couple of weeks, but I figured I'd at least update you on the current things being looked at:

(5) Enchanter Apprentice Klikil is also under current consideration.

Tao edit: Edited to change "HP" to "aggregate HP" in the last sentence about The Ancient Guardians. They still add up to the same amount.
Click to expand...

I'm just curious, what is the problem with Klikil that would bring him under consideration?
 
even when the rats were made not undead the fight was still pretty easy. it's always been easier than animation, even easier than the nerfed animation. the loot sucks, that is the only reason no one kills it.

Tao edit: I'll overlook the negative tone in this post, but please try to be more constructive in future posts. This thread is, after all, about fixing issues such as these. Oh, and for the record, it's been killed nine times in 2013, so it's not "no one kills it", but it's certainly not killed as much as it probably should be.
 
The Enchanter Apprentice Klikil fight is really about the first minute of the encounter and getting things under control. I'm not sure (yet) that this accomplishes a proper gear check. That said, making that first minute of the encounter more difficult just seems outright asinine. The current idea is that an increase in the HP of the encounter by actually not that much would create the "we've got just enough mana to finish this" style of gear check that would put it at the lower end of Tier 10 difficulty as appropriate for a mob just after Animation of Sil`rel`din.

This sounds like an outright nerf to the fight; I'm aware of that. However, if you're reading this thread, I trust that you're level-headed enough to hear me out on this before getting upset, so I make two statements beyond the basic "this is a tier-appropriate change". First, this is just under consideration. No action has been taken or will be taken until we're confident it's a change for the best. Second, it would go hand-in-hand with an upwards change in the quality of the loot. Such a change would require quite a few decisions in the process. Should we change the stats on the items or instead create new items with new names that are the new versions of those items that would start dropping after the change? How should those items be changed? Is a 15 mana increase appropriate? Is adding a focus effect appropriate? Is adding classes to the items appropriate? Should we simply add a new item dissimilar to the ones on his current loot table (or are we still happy that all those itemization gaps around Tier 10 that we were aware of were filled during those marathon lower thaz itemization staff mumble conversations nobody told you about until just now)?

... or maybe we'll leave it entirely alone. Hence, it is "under consideration". That said, if you've got anything constructive to say about the fight or its rewards, this is the place to be heard.
 
Oh, and in the spirit of "in case this doesn't get into the patch notes", pending for this patch is a minor adjustment to the drops of the spires class bracers based on a minor numerical oversight. The Druid, Enchanter, and Ranger bracers should be dropping slightly more often (yeah, just slightly, but in the interest of fairness, it's a worthy change). Sadly, to get the numbers fair, the droprates of the other 12 bracers is being dropped by an imperceptibly small 0.03 percent. Complaints about this drop rate nerf can be placed into the TARDIS to be delivered to me in the year 2024 when the cumulative adjustment will reach an expected downward adjustment of a single bracer drop between the 12 classes.

Overall, rejoice you druids, enchanters, and rangers... I guess. It's all-in-all small but important.
 
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