The way this community works... (careful: straight talk)

[Maliciosa]

Hello fellow players!

I have been playing on Wintersroar for about 3 weeks now (internet connection down since thursday hopefully to come back up this afternoon) - and I have made some observations that I would like to throw into the air for discussion.

Disclaimer: Just to avoid that this thread is derailed by people telling me about all the positive aspects of this server, I will list them just so even the most skeptical person understands I am aware of them.
I do know and appreciate that:
- this server is free to many, very well maintained, staff puts a lot of work and free-time in it, the whole story and design of zones.
- all other positive aspects not mentioned above, just in case I forgot anything.
Disclaimer end.

Now, this is just my personal perception of the way a community should work, but I always thought that a bunch of people form a community for mutual benefit. In the case of this server, that means the staff gets a playerbase for "their" server, and the players mostly get to play on it for free (apart from some donators). Anyways, both parties are vital to the community. While a single staff member or player missing might not really make much of a difference, the players have no wintersroar without the staff, and the staff will be pretty lonely without the players.
It wouldn't be much fun to develop and host a server all for yourself now, would it?

So this is the general assumption upon which I base my opinion that - to a certain degree - the players should be respected by the staff.

I would define it this way: There are rules. Staff can set those up on their own. Everyone can read through them and accept them before they start playing. But once you make those rules, STICK to them.
And "wiz can do anything he wants" is not an acceptable rule. Players need a certain guarantee that - as long as they don't do anything wrong - they won't have any permanent damage done to their character(s). Otherwise they won't play.
Anyways - of course rule changes need to be made as things come up that weren't an issue before. That's common sense.

I already mentioned this in the technical support section after the thread debating the new patcher was closed, but I want to point it out again:
Part of a community is listening to each other!
To put it more bluntly: Locking threads about things you don't like to hear is not in order. Not ever!
As you can see by a certain, more popular topic here in this section, it just causes more threads to be created, splitting the debate, and threats to be made by the staff.
If you are a staff member and don't want to comment on something, just don't bother doing it - that's always better than to force a stop to a members discussion. Debates on the forums are always a bit hotter than ingame - it's not hurting the gameplay at all. Debates like this are healthy and needed.
Also - don't take flame posts by a single user as an excuse to lock an otherwise constructive debate - if you must, censor the posts of that user, don't go and punish the other posters for someone elses actions.
If we can agree to only lock real flamewars, then everyone will be off happier, I think.

One other thing that I have noted is denunciations. I really, really hate this, it's doing much more damage to the game than any flamewar on the forums ever could. I would log on eventually to see someone named <insert random name here> ask a simple question in ooc, and the very next thing is someone replies with how they think his name or question is something against server rules and threatening the questioner with whatever they can imagine a GM would do to him. Guys - if you really think someone is doing something against the rules - do you think it HELPS starting a discussion in ooc? Get a grip! If you are so sure you are right about the thing, do a /petition and let it be. Just stop the silly "I am so important, I'll show everyone how important I am by telling you all that I know about everything the GMs think and do". It's ridiculous and a behaviour worthy of an elementary school kid that nobody likes.
No one is interested in what you think the GMs would do - just leave it up to themselves how they will react to any given issue, okay?

And a last thing that I find very annoying: About every single time someone posts a critical post on the board, (s)he will be zerged by that kind of forum lurkers who defend the issue in question as if their life depended on it - but not, as you would expect from a reasonable person - with statements to back it up, but rather by pointing out how very thankful we should be that this free server is available to us and how the staff can do whatever they like to and whatnot, and that we have to accept it, if we like it or not.
I am guessing those people are either just general bootlickers, or some sort of forum-masochists, who enjoy being bossed around and obeying. Either way, it disgusts me how people can just switch their brains off and say "xyz made it so - live with it".
Guys, get a grip: Everything is open to discussion - as long as the criticism is backed up with some valid points. And of course, the person criticising something should actually have _some_ sort of solution in mind - just saying "I don't like it the way it is" naturally doesn't really help anybody.

To sum it all up:
- we all benefit from the server: staff gets a playerbase without which it would be no fun to work on such a project, playerbase gets a cheap and very good server - thus we should listen to each other
- don't lock forum discussions unless the issue has been solved (in which case you should provide a link to the solution) or there is a real flamewar going on (*hint* Flamewars involve cursing and insults - without that it is usually just a heated debate)
- abusing serverwide ooc for denunciations ingame sucks ass - just drop it
- publically stating that you live but to serve and are willing to blindly follow orders just makes you look like a loser


Go ahead and post your thoughts on this - that's why I went out of my way to create such a long post.

Regards,

Maliciosa

 

[aarkhon]

This must be one of, if not the, single-most ignorant posts I have ever read.

And a last thing that I find very annoying: About every single time someone posts a critical post on the board, (s)he will be zerged by that kind of forum lurkers who defend the issue in question as if their life depended on it - but not, as you would expect from a reasonable person - with statements to back it up, but rather by pointing out how very thankful we should be that this free server is available to us and how the staff can do whatever they like to and whatnot, and that we have to accept it, if we like it or not.
I am guessing those people are either just general bootlickers, or some sort of forum-masochists, who enjoy being bossed around and obeying. Either way, it disgusts me how people can just switch their brains off and say "xyz made it so - live with it".
Guys, get a grip: Everything is open to discussion - as long as the criticism is backed up with some valid points. And of course, the person criticising something should actually have _some_ sort of solution in mind - just saying "I don't like it the way it is" naturally doesn't really help anybody.

Thank you - deal with it.

 

[Xeldan]

To put it more bluntly: Locking threads about things you don't like to hear is not in order. Not ever!

I'm not sure where you get this? The staff reserves the right to lock threads that end up inappropriate for the section of the forum they're posted in, especially if they steer off topic as much as that did. You were free to create a thread in General to discuss it, but instead chose to take this route and make people on the staff look like bad guys.

That thread you turned into a discussion about .NET was a SUPPORT thread. Not a "hey guys, do you like .NET or not?" thread.

 

[Fjodor]

First of all, what Wiz says goes, this IS wiz server, he created he, he has pumped in more money than any single one of us ever will be able to donate to maintain it up.
The locking of topics, well, read the nameing rules, it's a rule, you break it, you will get punnished, it's as simple as that. Then comeing here to flame about it won't help so the topic gets locked.
So your point being ??? what ?
There is a sugestion part of this board, put things there if you want something to change, flameing about, WHAAA, I got my name nerfed because I named him Gandalf, I've played here for a WHOLE 3 weaks and am level 50+. Well, read the rules again.
And to go back to first point again, if Wiz gets fed up with this server he can cancel all donation accounts and close the server so yes, anything Wiz says goes. He created this server for us players, so we players should respect his rules.

 

[snorfy]

I have been here about as long as you have now, and I disagree with most of what you have to say. The people who run the community have a right to do with it as they wish. They are the ones who are investing the time and energy to make it possible. If people don't like the rules, they are free to start their own community based on their own blood and sweat.

As for locking threads, I think it is necessary, and is again based on whatever the rules are. I don't have a problem with rules existing or people being designated by the powers that be to enforce those rules, whatever they may be. I can like the rules, I can dislike them, I can suggest changes when appropriate etc.

The one issue I do agree with you with though are the players who are NOT admins, who feel it is their right in life to threaten, cajole and disturb other players for any perceived infraction. It is ridiculous, and I would actually like to see actions taken against them for unnecessarily bullying other players. I saw one idjit basically ridicule every new person on the newbie guild chat because of their name. Over and over again. He was mean, rude, and childish. And I have seen this happen on different issues with different people. I think this behavior is detrimental to the community. There are desginated admins, and designated rules. We do not need self-appointed vigalantes who think they know what is best and try to put others down. It is especially irksome when they are in the newbie guild chat doing it as they are likely turning off new players with their bad behavior.

 

[iaeolan]

I guess the old saying holds true "Beggers can't be choosers"

You are most likely the same person whos started this very discussion in /ooc late yesterday. You or not it seems you got the same response. I have been playing for 8 days now, so my voice and views are pretty nil, but it seems most everybody that plays winter's roar understands we are playing on someone else's dime. A lot of us do not hold WR stock to vote on what goes on. Those who donate understand that it is a donation, not a commision fee that entitles them to power.

If someone bought you a steak better yet MADE you a steak with the cow they raised and butchered, and it was medium instead of medium rare like you like it... don't complain or even suggest that maybe they should give you a little voice in how its prepared. Either take it and like it or get the hell out and try to find another place that offer's what is more to your liking.

 

[Maliciosa]

As I said - this is a start for discussing some things that my personal perception led me to believe need discussion. While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I find it rather ridiculous that some people reply in this thread in exactly the way I complained about above. If you can't find any better arguments, please at least refrain from repeating each other. It's enough if _one_ person replies with more or less exactly "server belongs to staff, staff can do what they want". By the way - in case you didn't notice - I never questioned what the staff can do, I simply questioned the wiseness in doing so under all circumstances.

Anyways, I'd like to hear some more opinions on this

Regards,
Maliciosa

PS:

(internet connection down since thursday hopefully to come back up this afternoon)

You are most likely the same person whos started this very discussion in /ooc late yesterday.

Reading comprehension owns.

 

[Ciaran]

I'm gonna fall on the side of the staff can do whatever. Not because it belongs to them (except in the case of Wiz can do whatever he wants and the definately is because it belongs to him) but because they've made a pretty good place to play and I'm enjoying it. They've also done a good job by the server in my opinion. I've never had any problems with them, or even really been talked to (except in the case of Wiz being extraordinarily helpful when my system was borked or the few occasions where I've fallen on the side of something Melwin disagreed with XD) so... part of where I'm coming from would be right there. Yeah they should listen, and for the most part they do, they've said there're some things that just won't ever change but past those they look at ideas and comments. I could just be one of those types who as long as things don't affect me they don't bother me but... yeah that's my opinion, never been adversely affected by the way they do things, my name is still intact (despite how I think someone tried to get it nerfed the other day by pointing out that it's Gaelic [and it -is- a real name by the way]) and I don't intend on doing anything or writing anything that'll cause a ruckus.

 

[Straha]

Just because a segment of the players want something does not make it a good idea, Live should serve as an excellent example of this and the reason many people prefer playing WR over Live. The idea that because a game/service needs users the ones running it should be at the beck and call of those users is flawed primarily because there's a lot of stupid people out there. The people running this server have as you rightly stated put a lot of time and effort into the server, they have also elliminated your arguement ahead of time by saying they don't care what you think. It's their server, they're following a "vision" like the original eq did and don't care if these lose players by doing so, its not a lowest common denominator situation, the very thing that ruined Live in a lot of people's minds. WR is not trying to make everyone happy and attract as many paying customers as possible to squeeze out of as much as they can via ignorant expansions and misguided attempts at "balance". They're making a server based on their views on what EQ should have been, a lot of people who want to make wizards named Gandalf won't be happy here, warriors who want to solo as well as necros won't be happy here, people who demand the server conform to what they want it to be, wont. be. happy. here. Period.

Suggestions are one thing and are welcomed, that's why there's a whole segment of the boards devoted to making suggestions no matter how silly, unfeasible or actually good they may be. Coming to general and arguing with the people providing the server and how they do things is not making a suggestion, its making demands and being combative as far as anyone can tell. If you don't like how things are done, by all means don't play, if you have a valid suggestion post it as such or ask questions about why things are done a certain way, not that you think doing things that way is stupid and the people working on the server have it all wrong and should just listen to you. It's not going to happen and you're only annoying people already stressed by plenty of bitter people who've said the same things before and will continue to do so in the future. I've run into the same thing repeatedly doing comics, if I did what everyone else wanted it might better appeal to the lowest common denominator, but it wouldn't be what I want to do. Hence, I don't listen to suggestions, I don't do what others want me to do, I make the comic I want to make, Wiz makes the server he wants to make, if you like it that's fine, if not too bad. Just don't expect things to change for you. If you think you can do a better job, start your own server.

Coming here and arguing with the admins and mods isn't a good way to effect change, insulting those who disagree with you is a bad way to garner support and automatically shortens the life of this thread. Calling those who agree with the staff and enjoy the server "bootlickers", and questioning the reading comprehension of those who didn't "get" what you were saying makes you look like an ass, not someone who wants to rationally discuss issues.

 

[Snotgrubb]

I'll agree on the comments about the player community. Overall the player community has grown meaner, more smart-alecky, and more flame oriented than it was a year ago. In game /ooc is really bad right now. (this board has traditionally been a touch flamey though)

It's too bad, there are some really nice and helpful people who play on this server but they tend to be drowned out by the noise in ooc and these boards.

 

[Gavving]

I love the fact that WR is ruled with an iron fist, and the message board should be ruled the same way. Message boards are the fuel that destroys MMO communities. They are where a few flamer board bunnies and squeal and scream and cry for changes that don't really need to be made. The developers must not allow this to happen as all it does in the end is screw things up. Fixing bugs is great, complaining about how the server is run is not. Talking about server issues is great, going "Pallys suck!" with absolutely nothing to back it up, no ideas or fixes, and no actual discussion is not.

As for OOC, turn it off if it bothers you.

 

[Maliciosa]

Straha,

(lots of defending the game content)

I did not, at all, complain about the content of this server. To the contrary - I like the way it's been done and enjoy playing on it.

Apart from pointing out some flaws in the behaviour of players towards one another, I just think that censorship of any kind is wrong most of the time. If people really have so poor judgement that their post is all silly, let others read it for themselves and make up their own minds. Same goes for debates about suggestions: I am not willing to make any more suggestions simply because I fear that my whole time invested in a well-phrased post might be in vain, because some staff member doesn't like it and cuts the debate short with an immediate topic-lock.
That is not a great motivation to post suggestions. That's what happened with the patcher thing. Some people feel uncomfortable with installing the -net-package (including me) and were asking for an alternative, because otherwise we enjoy playing on WR. The debate was locked because someone decided we were "bitching".

I make the comic I want to make, Wiz makes the server he wants to make, if you like it that's fine, if not too bad.

Quite a difference there between comics and running a server
Comics just need readers - a server absolutely needs interaction.

insulting those who disagree with you is a bad way to garner support and automatically shortens the life of this thread. Calling those who agree with the staff and enjoy the server "bootlickers"

Hold a minute right there. I did NOT call "those who agree with the staff" bootlickers. I used that expression for those that have nothing else to add to a debate other than "staff can do what they want to, so live with it".
There is a BIG difference between sharing an opinion with someone and just joining in line behind someone without having an opinion of your own. If those people had that, they'd say something along the lines "I think staff should be able to do what they want because..." and list some reasons why that is better for the server.

, and questioning the reading comprehension of those who didn't "get" what you were saying makes you look like an ass, not someone who wants to rationally discuss issues.

Does it? Or doesn't it rather appear that the person in question just wanted to pointlessly snipe in my general direction without actually caring that the whole comment was unnecessary because I was definitely not the person he was referring to?
Why bother typing an all-new explanation if simply quoting some earlier post will clear things up?

Anyways - you have missed my main points: a) the community should stop the bitching at each other and try to reason, b) the staff shouldn't lock topics just because they are fed up with them, but rather just discontinue reading them - based on their individual "fed-upness".

Regards,

Maliciosa

 

[Fjodor]

First of all Straha wonderfull post, I agree with you on everything.
Now, to Maliciosa, the more I read your post and replys here the more I see you as a pure whiner, you just want to complain and then defend your complains with, no, I didn't say that Wiz shouldn't have all power, I said that now, when Wiz have all the power, players might not like it and leave...... Um..... Well.... Yes, you just said that players (you included in this case) thinks that Wiz shouldn't have all power, you just put it in other words but still, you just want to complain about how the server and these forums are runned. If you don't like it, then feel free to leave, WR is up only because it's run like it is, WR has its playerbase because of its staff. Like they have stated on the main page, if you don't like it then don't play, it's as simple as that, yes, ofcourse WR improves, it does so every day, most by the sugestions of the players, but sugestions are posted in the right place, your post here is just a bitch post with fine words.

 

[Raherin]

I agree with most of the original post you've made Mal. I do however think that locking posts is needed. If those name threads were put into suggestions, and didn't have such ridiculas arguements, flaming, and threads they might not have stayed locked. However, anyone can see those threads were going to turn into huge wonderful flame threads, and as most know threads can get: hi-jacked, thrown off topic, flaming, and insults all too easy. :roll: Since it's pretty obvious were some of these threads are going to go, it should get locked (especially rant threads since most of them consist of no proof/points and alot of the times basically stats "this sucks").

It would be nice if people didn't bring up stuff such as "omg lol yur name is gonna get nerfzored" in OOC because it's going to start a really fun discussion/flame in ooc. Also, for people who get their name nerfed and decide to accounce it in ooc: you are finding another way to start a wondering talk. One thing that is true is that there should be more hard rules about naming and how the GMs administer them. But there is so much up for debate, and some things one GMs doesn't know (name history etc), and what another knows. In my own opinion people should just deal with these issuses as best they can because it might be more work than it's worth. There is always going to be holes/loops. Just try not to get attached to your level 15 wizard named Blastorz too much. :/

As for rules, sure they can be up for discussion. However, Wiz has put so many countless hours working on this server making me personally say: "whatever he says goes". If he's open to discussion, then that's fine, if he's not, go with the change/situation. WR is an ever changing server in which after time you learn to adapt to almost any change/nerf/situation.

 

[Liam]

I lock posts regarding Name Policy, as IT IS NO LONGER A TOPIC OF DISCUSSION.

As you may have noticed earlier, I am fucking sick and tired of the god damn name policy discussion. It's been in place since day 1 of Winter's Roar, and it's not going to change now. Big deal, get over it.

Edit: Oh, and thank you for telling us how to do our job. I don't know where we'd be without you.

 

[Popps97]

i dont' understand why the GM's are getting so upset about the nameing thing

Try explaing it to us, please?

I have seen people complaing, because they get their names changed.. no problems, changed.. another GM comes on, goes OMG change you name, 2 min kick! on... person changes name again...

I have read the policy, and it basically puts the name policy in the hands of the GM's. (anything could be a violation) Who controls the GM"s? as already stated, Wiz doesn't care about the names.

i personaly have never gotten the name change hit to me.. but its been on the boards and OOC all weekend.. im just curious, not trying to provoke, if you feel that way.

 

[Mors]

I believe wiz should be able to do as he wishes it's his server. If it was mine I'd do whatever I wanted with it. I think that is the same with everyone. I do agree and disagree with certain issues on both sides.
I agree something needs to be done with the /ooc thing. I see peope belittle and being childish in /ooc "nerf this nerf that."

Rule 11: Do not send tells to staff complaining about nerf X, or trying to bring attention to issue Y, unless you find an exploiter and instantly need to talk to a staffer. Neither is it okay to pester staff just trying to play with their player characters about how you feel that your dagger isn't shiny enough. Doing so will get you a swift /kick, and in the case of repeated offending, a possible de-level. We don't want our time wasted, and have no qualms about wasting yours in turn.

also it happens in the noobie guild when you start out. There are lvl 50+ people in there that treat the people who have never played EQ or anything like it like complete crap. It's a noobie guild to help people just starting grasp everything, if your not gonna help and your gonna be a neusince /guildremove. Don't tell a noobie "your stupid, a froglok hand is so a froglok can carry things."

Rule 5:Show proper conduct in dealing with other players. Deliberate training, killstealing, griefing, excessive vulgarity or otherwise being a prick to other players will result in severe repercussions to yourself. We try to maintain a friendly attitude and have no place for the socially lacking.

I think the rules need to be over hauled or something seems like those 2 rules are being broken non-stop and I know rule 11 is barely enforced because it's the same people in /ooc saying nerf this nerf that or being complete jackass's. We have rules follow them or pay for it later. Don't like it leave. I just wish the bigs ones that happen all the time were enforced as much as the really small ones I think it would cut down on a lot of crap and would save the GM's more time to do other helpful things to make the game better.

Krail

 

[Liam]

Alright, the final arbiter in terms of names is Wiz. He does care. He's the one who made the policy, he just happens to be too busy to go about doing it himself.

Now, most GM's tend to ask about some names they feel are slightly borderline, and what not, in the staff channel, and we usually come to a consensus regarding it. Great, good, the system seems to work.

Now, we have the 2 minute flagging system, which is a very useful tool, but there are some slight issues with it in that some people don't do anything for a long period of time and just keep getting kicked, every 2 minutes. We do get a message broadcast to all GM's when they change their name, but seriously, there are times when they just log out, and re-log later and change it to something stupid, but no one's around to see it.

I'll be perfectly honest, I used to be a real hard ass when it came to names, but with the growing population, I've lightened up a bit and just went after the truly offensive. I can't police names all day long.

On that note however, it is not a uniform change in policy, merely one on my part. I'll probably be told by Wiz after this post is sent to pick it up, but that's cool, and I'll just have to do it. Whatever, no big deal to me.

Another issue is that we have to recruit new GM's to meet the demand of a new and bigger population who come from all over the place. So far, they've been doing a grand job, but perhaps may have gone crazy with the name nerfing bat. I'm not sure, but it will be a topic of discussion some day.

Guys, seriously, there will be discrepancies in decision and policy, shit, it happens all over the world, and I'm sorry that it happens in WR, but there is no point in starting up a giant, whine filled thread on the forums. It just incites more of it.

Edit:

One final note: Please guys, you need to understand that we're doing this for free, on our own time, and the last thing we want are whiners ruining it. We're providing you with free entertainment, so make it a bit easier for us and if you have a serious issue with name policy, by all means, send me a PM and I'll see what I can do for you. With that said, for the love of god be honest if you're going to PM me with the woeful story of how your name, littlehobbit or whatever got nerfed, and don't tell me that Wiz okayed it. I'm not a dumb ass and I really won't feel like helping you if you approach it as such, but we can cooperate on this and meet a happy medium, I'm sure.

One more edit:

Sorry guys, I forgot I had more to say-

To all of you Junior GM wanna-be's out there, give it a rest. We appreciate the help, but we have a master list of all the names anyways so it's not a big deal for us to just run through them and flag them appropriately. It makes you look like big weiners in OOC and we can do it ourselves.

Seriously, the help is appreciated, but unnecessary. The other players probably aren't fans of it either.

 

[Popps97]

deleted, sense liam apparently doesn't want any ideas, or help.

 

[Thinkmeats]

This must be one of, if not the, single-most ignorant posts I have ever read.

Thank you - deal with it.

Now, to Maliciosa, the more I read your post and replys here the more I see you as a pure whiner, you just want to complain and then defend your complains with, no, I didn't say that Wiz shouldn't have all power, I said that now, when Wiz have all the power, players might not like it and leave......

Maliciosa has been unfailingly calm in this thread, refraining from personal attacks and keeping it civilized. If you're going to grub at the moral high ground the least you can do is afford him the same courtesy.

That said, Maliciosa: you've got some things right but some things wrong. Point by point, here's where I stand.

The players are already respected by the staff to the degree it's necessary. I'm betting that your 'respect' point is more of a lead-in to the thread locking thing anyway. For that, I disagree. Threads about topics we've all seen a hundred billion times do need to be locked. This is where it's important not to misunderstand: the mods don't lock threads becuase they don't want debate, they lock the threads because they've already had the debate a dozen times. It clutters up the board and is unecessary. Letting bad threads go on doesn't hurt gameplay, but it does hurt the community, making the forums a less friendly and useful place to visit.

As for the backseat mods who cry about names in ooc and the lurkers who play e-paladin, flying into a thread like the white knight of internet justice to defend the poor under-represented staffers who have nobody to defend them? I agree pretty much completely. Stuff like the first reply to this thread is unecessary and doesn't add anything to the discussion.

Also,

deleted, sense liam apparently doesn't want any ideas, or help.

Good god what did you think to gain by making this post?

EDIT--Also, in general it's bad karma to tell staff how to do their job except where they specifically ask for that kind of input.