The Problem(?) of PUGs

[Tarutao]

Six of the seven zones that are restricted (yeah, it's only seven zones) are zones that a guild would not be allowed to raid unless they did the prerequisite content; for example, Exodus had to kill Prime Enchanter Sil`Rel`Din before doing Spires of Saitha.

If a Pickup Raid is to be let into any of those zones, you'll have to argue that there should be no restriction for guild raids in those cases and probably, by extension, that there should be no content that should be "do this other zone first".

A pickup raid having benefits over a guild raid under the same circumstances should NOT happen. Being guilded and raiding as a guild must not be a detriment by virtue of being a guild raid.

 

[lynnettell]

I stopped donating in response to the trashing of thaz and the new "pug" rules.

Good job dev team

I'll read the next four pages tomorrow, but picked up your slack.

 

[Salarus]

Six of the seven zones that are restricted (yeah, it's only seven zones) are zones that a guild would not be allowed to raid unless they did the prerequisite content; for example, Exodus had to kill Prime Enchanter Sil`Rel`Din before doing Spires of Saitha.

If a Pickup Raid is to be let into any of those zones, you'll have to argue that there should be no restriction for guild raids in those cases and probably, by extension, that there should be no content that should be "do this other zone first".

A pickup raid having benefits over a guild raid under the same circumstances should NOT happen. Being guilded and raiding as a guild must not be a detriment by virtue of being a guild raid.

This. A trillion times.

 

[Severien]

Yeah I'm feelin this.

The way I see it, if you are tired of people claiming items and losing /randoms you will join a guild that does not do these things.

If you are fine with this or whatever, you can PUG stuff until you keel over.

And if DEVS want gated content they can damn well design and implement the gate themselves. At any rate it should not be a rule, but a design choice.

OK WELL unless anyone has anything else to add I am for not caring about PUGs one way or the other.

Thank you.

Let's see 4 hour spawn times accross the board then, or instanced zones please. That way everyone can kill whatever they want/whenever they want!

EDIT: before some dim wit cries foul - the only difference between a rule (no pugs etc) and something coded (ToT ele's, spawn timers etc) in the raid game, is one is in code, one is something you arn't supposed to do - they are both trying to achieve an end result one way or another. I'm sure if there was an easy code to check the 2/3rds rule when it existed for every zone it would have been in, but assuming there wasn't, so hence, the rule. So yes, in this game they are pretty much the same thing!

Uh what? No. You are being crazy tinfoil reactionary. Spawn timers set a hard limit on how much of a mobs loots can be released into the server over time. Don't start being silly.

Six of the seven zones that are restricted (yeah, it's only seven zones) are zones that a guild would not be allowed to raid unless they did the prerequisite content; for example, Exodus had to kill Prime Enchanter Sil`Rel`Din before doing Spires of Saitha.

If a Pickup Raid is to be let into any of those zones, you'll have to argue that there should be no restriction for guild raids in those cases and probably, by extension, that there should be no content that should be "do this other zone first".

A pickup raid having benefits over a guild raid under the same circumstances should NOT happen. Being guilded and raiding as a guild must not be a detriment by virtue of being a guild raid.

The simple solution is to let guilds ignore the silly 2/3 rule too. We ALREADY DO THIS for guilds that form out of players that are obviously above certain content, ex. when Giggly Schoolgirls formed no one insisted that we had to go do GotSS and Taesh to access IP. If the guild can kill it, it should be allowed to, and in the case of keys if one person can let everyone else in that's fine, this isn't even lore-breaking in most cases considering SOMEONE is there who it applies to.

 

[staffeq2]

Until recently, I haven't been much of a raider in SoD. On live, I was hard core. Being in one of the top three raiding guilds on Rallos Zek pvp server and participating in the most monumental and memorable raid of all times ... killing The Sleeper. So even though I haven't alot of experience raiding on SoD, I have a tremendous amount of raid experience from the 6 or 7 years I spent on live.

I haven't been on any pugs in SoD so far (I have played SoD for over 2 years, albeit, I did take about a year hiatus from SoD), but I think I probably will from time to time. My thing is, I don't see what all the big deal about PuG raids is. If you're going to raid a zone that requires a key or a flag, what difference does it make if the entire raid is all of one guild or PuG'd with at least the 2/3 rule policy of keyed/flagged players getting into the raid zone? Why is this such an issue?

I'm in Resurgum guild, and though Resurgum has been around a while, I just joined them at the begining of their third stage of rebuilding. We are certainly gaining ground on the tiers for raiding, but we aren't on the level with the higher tiered guilds .... yet. My point about that is, if I happen to be online on a day that we aren't raiding, and a PuG is starting to form that I might get in, why would that be an action of such controversy?

I do agree that guilds should do things together, and most guilds do (at least the ones that want to keep members). But why is there so much controversy and discussion about who, what, and where PuGs can and can't go provided they meet the minimum requirements of being able to enter any zone? Is it for lack of content and higher guilds complaining about targets being up? Is it disdain that someone in a lesser or lower tiered guild get an item that is beyond their guild's current tier capability? I really just don't understand why there is such a controversy over PuGs.

/boggle

 

[Salarus]

Thank you.



Uh what? No. You are being crazy tinfoil reactionary. Spawn timers set a hard limit on how much of a mobs loots can be released into the server over time. Don't start being silly.



The simple solution is to let guilds ignore the silly 2/3 rule too. We ALREADY DO THIS for guilds that form out of players that are obviously above certain content, ex. when Giggly Schoolgirls formed no one insisted that we had to go do GotSS and Taesh to access IP. If the guild can kill it, it should be allowed to, and in the case of keys if one person can let everyone else in that's fine, this isn't even lore-breaking in most cases considering SOMEONE is there who it applies to.

Spawn timers are a form of stopping players from chain killing mobs, yes. There are a number of ways to go about this such as keeping the timers as they are, and allowing guilds to trigger content on the same timer (with a cooldown of the same duration after the encounter is beaten, mind you.) All of this though, including how it is now is an active choice of how to run the server. So is allowing certain players to go into certain zones.

As per your Giggly example, idk where you where when FWF formed, but they had to go back and get re flagged for IS, even though a ton of their toons had that gear already, and could easily trounce the mobs. Is taesh trivial? sure, but obviously there is a line, which has been enforced.

 

[Severien]

Spawn timers are a form of stopping players from chain killing mobs, yes. There are a number of ways to go about this such as keeping the timers as they are, and allowing guilds to trigger content on the same timer (with a cooldown of the same duration after the encounter is beaten, mind you.) All of this though, including how it is now is an active choice of how to run the server. So is allowing certain players to go into certain zones.

As per your Giggly example, idk where you where when FWF formed, but they had to go back and get re flagged for IS, even though a ton of their toons had that gear already, and could easily trounce the mobs. Is taesh trivial? sure, but obviously there is a line, which has been enforced.

I wasn't playing the game when FWF was formed, but thank you for your example of a thing that is really really stupid.

 

[Salarus]

One of the guilds who had merged into it wasn't flagged, I find it completely reasonable.

Not to mention, I like how your whole attemped lassiez-faire attitude is all well and good until we bring up spawn timers/instances, and then suddenly NO! We need regulation what are you crazy? This entire server is one giant form of regulating the flow of game play in a certain way. There is no random mechanic involved beyond that which is designed, no guiding force greater than the hands of the developers who toil away hours on end to create content for us, the player base. Yet all I see in this thread is WAAHHHH I can't kill 100% of content that is up all the time. Who cares that the majority of content is still PuGable, and I can jump right into t7+ so long as I have a ringer tank? I want it all, I want it now.

Who gives a fuck about the little guy? I fucking do. So god forbid a few of your precious zones arn't PuGable anymore so that the little guys can have slightly better experience themselves. They may not do things the most efficient way, but who gives a shit, it's a video game and they are here for fun! Who are you to say how they should have it, or that we shouldn't protect their right to play as they like?

(Fat edit in there somehwere)

 

[Abelfaec]

Spawn timers are a form of stopping players from chain killing mobs, yes. There are a number of ways to go about this such as keeping the timers as they are, and allowing guilds to trigger content on the same timer (with a cooldown of the same duration after the encounter is beaten, mind you.) All of this though, including how it is now is an active choice of how to run the server. So is allowing certain players to go into certain zones.

As per your Giggly example, idk where you where when FWF formed, but they had to go back and get re flagged for IS, even though a ton of their toons had that gear already, and could easily trounce the mobs. Is taesh trivial? sure, but obviously there is a line, which has been enforced.

I think his point was to say that IP was considered trivial. Even though FWF had Sanctum loot, the difference between tier 11-12 and tier 10 is significantly smaller and shouldn't be deemed "Trivial" whereas his giggly example of GotSS is very different.

I'm not defending that they shouldn't have to flag for prison, I'm just saying his point is different.

The only incarnation we have of "instances" on SoD is in fact treasure maps. The loot table is narrow, so they aren't exactly a raid alternative, but maybe we just need to increase the droprate of ED tmaps, they are starting to sell for 10-15k now, and to me that is a sign of the times. These are great alternative for guilds allowing them to dedicate an allotted amount of time at any time they want regardless of zone claims, or spawn timers.

 

[Severien]

One of the guilds who had merged into it wasn't flagged, I find it completely reasonable.

Not to mention, I like how your whole attemped lassiez-faire attitude is all well and good until we bring up spawn timers/instances, and then suddenly NO! We need regulation what are you crazy? This entire server is one giant form of regulating the flow of game play in a certain way. There is no random mechanic involved beyond that which is designed, no guiding force greater than the hands of the developers who toil away hours on end to create content for us, the player base. Yet all I see in this thread is WAAHHHH I can't kill 100% of content that is up all the time. Who cares that the majority of content is still PuGable, and I can jump right into t7+ so long as I have a ringer tank? I want it all, I want it now.

Who gives a fuck about the little guy? I fucking do. So god forbid a few of your precious zones arn't PuGable anymore so that the little guys can have slightly better experience themselves. They may not do things the most efficient way, but who gives a shit, it's a video game and they are here for fun! Who are you to say how they should have it, or that we shouldn't protect their right to play as they like?

(Fat edit in there somehwere)

If you cared about the little guy, you wouldn't be anti-pug. I don't know why you can't understand that. I'm joining a pug right now, and it's led by and consists mostly of what I would consider "little guys," as most pugs are. As for "WAHH I can't kill 100% of content blah blah blah" that doesn't really apply to me, as I can already kill most things and I'm in no rush to go higher (I'm a casual these days).

Edit in response to an edit:

Who are you to say how they should have it, or that we shouldn't protect their right to play as they like?

Who are you to? You are the one who wants to restrict a style of play.

 

[Xenion]

I for one don't understand the hatred toward pugs. I hate leading them. I hate organizing them. But I don't mind tanking for them or being there to assist to get a chance at alt loot.

PuG's are in a way a major incentive to "the little guy" as many of you have put it. People log in hoping to PuG. Hoping to meet new player's. Maybe make some new friends/group contact's. To see new content. Why take that away? Your hurting your player base.

Sometimes PuG's are led by competent people and you kill the target. Most of the time there is a ringer tank. So what. If someone has the info and can play the toon all the power to them. At time's this isn't the case. The strat is off......the raid isn't high tier enough. They fail. It happen's.

Sanctum pugs? Yclist pugs? I dunno how to deal with those. Generals even? Never know. I have seen Well pugs being formed. Have fun. These level targets are difficult enough without adding the hardship of it being a pug/strat being off/players not being a cohesive unit.

The flagging/former 2/3rd's needs looking after. Zones like Abyss? That require a long quest line to gain access to? Probly shouldn't be puggable. This is something for the Admin's/staff to look over. Decide what is a valid PuG target and post it. Let the server know and enforce the rules. If it has already been done then it's been done. Players have to either except whats decided after it's been hashed out or quit.

Just my 2 cent's. P.S. I might pug once or twice every week. Either way this doesn't have a huge effect on me.

 

[cian2]

Wait, are you really telling me here that there should be no limitations on what is puggable unless the content itself limits it?!?

Why did I even BOTHER to kill Prime Enchanter then? I'll just call my next guildraid a PuG and see what Tur'rujik has to offer fore me! Sounds 100% ok to me after reading this post. syduck: Yes I'm trolling, but really, this is a terrible idea!

I think this is totally acceptable. I think if you can reach a mob, no matter what the method, you should be able to attempt to kill it. I know it won't happen because of the egos in this game, and I think there's a middle ground to be reached.

 

[Dimmi]

As long as someone has the key to get a raid in, who cares? 18 people is 18 people, whether it's a group of unruly ne'er-do-wells from /ooc, or a group of unruly ne'er-do-wells from /gu.

The top raiding guild on the server has been the same group of toons with different tags for it's last like 5 incarnations anywho.

I remember having to get "sanctum flagged" quite well. Basically TU ate Iratus Lepus, killed a sanctum boss (or two, idr and idc) then got told "No no no you have to be re-flagged because IL hadn't done Nexus."

This resulted in the guild sitting around with thumbs up butts waiting for it to spawn and a few token attempts at cock-blocking, so when it popped we could all (and by all I mean like 5 people) click the cast button on a single spell. (Sidenote, doesn't that now violate the rule about active contribution to a mob? OH GOD does this mean that Rules as Written melees aren't allowed in sanctum? Not contributing to the mob kill means no gaining benefits including loot and flags right?)

BTW, thank you gracious hand of god for letting us keep those ill-gotten, undeserved fruits of adulterous labor. Too kind.

tl;dr What ever happened to the days when the staff made judgement calls instead of trying to cover every single situation with a new rule? WHY DEAR GOD WHY DO WE KEEP MAKING RULES WE DON'T NEED and last but not least:

ffs, who cares

 

[Wulamdar]

The people who are anti PuGs are jealous that other people are getting access to loot over them. Their targets are being killed by ragtag groups, sometimes using a small number of over-tiered people to trivialize the encounter, and the loot is being distributed to people who don't "deserve" it.

There's nothing stopping you from doing the same thing. Stop complaining about other people putting in less effort than you and getting items beyond their 'tier.' If you want to play the game casually and progress slowly over a couple years, hitting each tier, then go for it. If you want to hit the ground running, get to 65 in 2 weeks, join up with PuGs and get geared to tier 8 levels in 4 months, then do it.

Don't sit here and complain that people are killing things that they shouldn't be allowed to kill because they aren't a guild and haven't jumped through the right hoops. If they can kill the target, they should get the loot.

 

[rams21]

We are loot-mongers who get off when we get a piece of gear. And it's an addiction, hard to stop doing it. I don't think these zones should be off limits personally, and as a PuG raid leader I would like to see them back to their primary state. As for Thaz yea it's a big 'ol loot pinata. But why remove it? In a year will Spires be removed? Because it's also a loot pinata? Its hard enough to raid on here as it is, in a guild or not in a guild, especially to just remove 16 Raid mobs just like that. I don't know , but i guess whatever happens, happens for the best.

 

[Crynel]

As long as someone has the key to get a raid in, who cares? 18 people is 18 people, whether it's a group of unruly ne'er-do-wells from /ooc, or a group of unruly ne'er-do-wells from /gu.

The top raiding guild on the server has been the same group of toons with different tags for it's last like 5 incarnations anywho.

I remember having to get "sanctum flagged" quite well. Basically TU ate Iratus Lepus, killed a sanctum boss (or two, idr and idc) then got told "No no no you have to be re-flagged because IL hadn't done Nexus."

This resulted in the guild sitting around with thumbs up butts waiting for it to spawn and a few token attempts at cock-blocking, so when it popped we could all (and by all I mean like 5 people) click the cast button on a single spell. (Sidenote, doesn't that now violate the rule about active contribution to a mob? OH GOD does this mean that Rules as Written melees aren't allowed in sanctum? Not contributing to the mob kill means no gaining benefits including loot and flags right?)

BTW, thank you gracious hand of god for letting us keep those ill-gotten, undeserved fruits of adulterous labor. Too kind.

tl;dr What ever happened to the days when the staff made judgement calls instead of trying to cover every single situation with a new rule? WHY DEAR GOD WHY DO WE KEEP MAKING RULES WE DON'T NEED and last but not least:

ffs, who cares

haha well said dimmi. i dont pug much at all (maybe 3 times a year if lucky) unless my guild is running it cause then i know it has some solid tons and players in it. though i enjoy going through old zones for alt loot and the chance to stomp lower tier content into the ground "like a boss".
Aside from that im not much of a pugger. i loathe the idea of trying to form one and i often get annoyed being on one. was this change needed? i cant really say, but i know in the end the sod staff will find the solution and make things happy. been playing this game for years and i still enjoy it and i will continue to adapt to the changing world.

 

[Salarus]

If you cared about the little guy, you wouldn't be anti-pug. I don't know why you can't understand that. I'm joining a pug right now, and it's led by and consists mostly of what I would consider "little guys," as most pugs are. As for "WAHH I can't kill 100% of content blah blah blah" that doesn't really apply to me, as I can already kill most things and I'm in no rush to go higher (I'm a casual these days).

Edit in response to an edit:

Who are you to? You are the one who wants to restrict a style of play.

I wasn't necessarily saying it applied to you, but a lot of other posters.

Banning raids from a handful of zones doesn't mean i'm against pugs, in fact, the only direction i'd take it is ban ToT as well. Of course i'm of the opinion that if your raid is 100% flagged, pug wherever the hell you like.

As per defending the little guys, I still contend that this change is a slight help to them. The way they choose to enjoy this game is different than most, but why shouldn't we let them kill dragons too?

To clarify, the slight interference of not being able to PuG a handful of zones is well worth it to protect the minority who wishes to play, and progress a certain way. I would also love to see a list of mobs that you CAN PuG that are up right now. It would probably be pages long.

 

[Wulamdar]

I wasn't necessarily saying it applied to you, but a lot of other posters.

Banning raids from a handful of zones doesn't mean i'm against pugs, in fact, the only direction i'd take it is ban ToT as well. Of course i'm of the opinion that if your raid is 100% flagged, pug wherever the hell you like.

As per defending the little guys, I still contend that this change is a slight help to them. The way they choose to enjoy this game is different than most, but why shouldn't we let them kill dragons too?

To clarify, the slight interference of not being able to PuG a handful of zones is well worth it to protect the minority who wishes to play, and progress a certain way. I would also love to see a list of mobs that you CAN PuG that are up right now. It would probably be pages long.

They can kill dragons. They do kill dragons. They also need to compete with the other 90% of the server that wants to kill and slay dragons. They should NOT be given special areas that only certain people can slay dragons. That's excluding content from other people who may not be able to have the time or desire to join a guild, but can be online randomly at a certain time when someone else is trying to further themselves or their friends, be it alts or mains.

A guild already has a number of advantages over a PuG. If the targets they need to progress are constantly being killed, they need to be better and make sacrifices. Solo touched on this already with a handful of people claiming a certain encounter hours before the rest of the guild was online. It's competitive for a reason. The ones who want it more will be rewarded. People are not entitled to anything just because they chose to play the game a certain way.

 

[robots]

Am I right that the bottom line and crux of this issue, is that PUG's of random noobs will blast through all the content the game has to offer?

If so I think trying to avoid that is important. Although I trust that Slaar and Co. that they will solve everything eventually and they'll do it well. I have played this game since before it was even called Shards of Dalaya, and it just gets better and better constantly. I don't wanna seem preachy but sometimes I feel a hint of doom and gloom, and I just wanted to point out that this game is pretty awesome and it is constantly getting better. I have several month long breaks and every time I come back the game has improved yet again in leaps and bounds. It's easy to forget that, but even long time issues that I thought would never be fixed (like the super annoying link dead bug) have also been fixed now.

So I could never be critical of Slaar or the game. I have a great PC and I could play any game, but I choose to play SoD just because it's the best. I only pass my opinion because I hope it helps, and it's also easy for me to be impartial because I have nothing to do with raiding (of any kind) anymore.

Back to this issue, assuming people blasting through the content is the main point of this thread, then I think using keys to manage it is a good option, and I support that. Ideally I would like the idea that each individual player, has to successfully 'complete' around 70% of each raid tier before they can progress to the next tier. Either doing this through quests, gear, or keys. That way a super powerful character is never going to help a bunch of newbies race through the tiers because the newbies need to go step by step, no matter what.

As I said in some other thread though, I don't think the game should be TOO concerned about people who 'beat the game'. It is sensible to try to make progress smooth! But I think we should admit that it is an inevitability that some people are going to achieve everything and get all the phat loots no matter what. Whether they do that in a guild group or in a pug, they are still going to do it one way or another, but - it doesn't really matter. All that matters is that they enjoy themselves. Once they have everything and have done everything, they will quit, and that's fine. As I said, I've been playing this game since before it was even called SoD. I have been in a few of the top guilds, and none of them exist anymore. And in fact, 99% of the players I used to see playing, are all gone now. There are only around 3 names I still see from the old days.

Even my most recent big guild, it's all over now. We were one of the top tier guilds who were doing great and getting all the phat loots. But the main tank quit more than a year ago and has never been seen since and another two founding member types quit around the same time. The guild had a very good year after that, but the guild has since ended. One guy is now married, one burned out, and one just did pretty much everything and decided to focus on real life instead. I'm not sure what happened to the others. There are only two players I still see playing who are now in another guild.

My point is that people who get everything, are not really a problem, imo atleast. It generally takes at least a year or more to get to that point, and then once they quit, they leave the game with good memories and make room for the next generation of players to go through the same experience. And that's what MMORPG's are all about imo. I feel a bit like a SoD historian because I can remember the whole journey of the game, and I know that most of the people I see playing today in guilds and pugs, were not even here a year ago. And I know that of all the people playing, the ones that were here 4 or 5 years ago, it's probably less than 1%. There have always been people who have achieved pretty much everything, they then quit, and new players took their place. It's been happening for several years, and the game is still going strong. So as long as you make sure nothing screws up the winning formula, I think the game will continue being great.

 

[Silosobi]

As per your Giggly example, idk where you where when FWF formed, but they had to go back and get re flagged for IS, even though a ton of their toons had that gear already, and could easily trounce the mobs. Is taesh trivial? sure, but obviously there is a line, which has been enforced.

I kind of thought it was silly at the time, but FWF was more than half IL people who weren't close to IS (and you weren't there).

The whole spires/prime thing does seem pretty stupid, but that's just because prime is a terrible fight, and just because TU/FWF/Exo had to go through it doesn't mean everyone else forever should also have to. From a lore perspective it makes perfect sense. A member of their ranks has already done it and been given a key, why can't they go let all their friends in with that key?

The core issue here, IMO, is that raid content should be a balance of encounter difficulty and loot. The fact that the big reward for prime is spires access is a flaw. The mob should be targeted for his loot. SOME players do enjoy lore (they are very much a minority of high end raiders), and they will want to kill these mobs for that purpose, but for most people its about the loot and aug upgrades.

If people can go and kill spires (or any zone) with a pug, and they have completed the lore/keys/etc such that the game will let them take that pug there, they should be able to try to beat it. Having pugged some high end content, I will tell you all it is not easy, and I don't allow anyone on those raids that I dont think can contribute in a significant way. Maybe some classes can even contribute while being a couple tiers lower than others, but at t11+ you just cant afford to bring worthless toons unless you have 12+ FWF mains, and 12+ FWF mains don't care about getting random people puggers loot. My pugs are generally myself and a few friends, boxing our mains and our alts, and then i fill the ranks with randoms who I think will make the raid successful.