The Problem(?) of PUGs

Coming from someone that considered dropping WoW and LoTRO and bringing 2 friends to this game, the idea of guild only content screams: We are a tight knit community, so go play a different game!

Sure, me and a couple of friends could start a new guild or try and eventually work our way up there...maybe, or there is a slight chance we get to end game and there would be an opening in one of the end game guilds for one or two of us. But then we would feel like schmucks if we had to leave the guild we had been with in order to get geared up enough to be in that end game guild.

MMORPGs are built on the stand point of PUGs, this type of game, especially so. As far as I am concerned as a new player to the game, if you seriously need to have guild only raid content that cannot allow for Pick-up Raids then you either need to add more frequent spawns or more raid content that drops the type of items PUGs are forming for to begin with.

In my opinion, if someone had the time and the energy to gather a workable PUG that can successfully conquer the content before another guild, then so be it. Whomever reaches the content first should have the right to it, guild or PUG, it should not matter. Besides, only the best of the best is going to be able to down the highest tier content anyway, and in that case, it should be first come, first served.

The bottom line is, saving content for a select few guilds and keeping out all the rest just gives a huge impression that this is a small community that really does not want outsiders getting near their prize possessions except on the slim chance you get accepted into the clique. If this is the impression you want to give or actually how you want things to be, no problem, WoW and LoTRO have plenty of soloable content and instances for the rest of the outside world.
 
Speaking as a player and just a player here: I think there should be guild only content, and I like the current rules for it. Only thing I would change is I would restore Thaz, make LT PuGable and UT guild only (You need a key to get to UT, after all!).
 
the problem, Seania, is that PuGs had gotten to the point that they were not really very allowing of guild stuff.... (i think that's at least part of the problem)

That being said, i really kind of like Kirium's idea :)

And considering increasing the frequency of some mobs,(or not even having to increase frequency of some mobs, just some very particular drops on those mobs) holds merit as well :)
 
alright... Nwaij's idea was a good one, yes.....

BUT....

What if they don't restore Thaz? what's your idea then?
 
I think kirium is on the right track but rather then adding new mob spawn timers and 2 versions Pug & guild versions , why not have the item drops scale with how the mob is killed , ie. keep the same mobs and spawns timers and just adjust the loot drops/rewards, if a tier mob is killed with all the same guildtagged members it would yield better loot drops/rewards or more loot drops/rewards.

I try to keep all of my guild raids guild members only and feel it should be rewarded as slaar suggests here but also recognize the vital role pugs play in the mmorpg community its unjust and unfair to lock out content because a raid is flagged as a pug or for adding in outside help but at the same time guild only kills should be rewarded a bit more imo.

Is it possible to code in when the mob dies its loot table and/or the amount of rewards is adjusted to conform to how it is killed (100% guild member killed vs pug style) rather then locking out content altogether from the pug community?

locking out content would be the easy way to go but easy is not always better and think this deserves a more permanant solution that serves both sides of the coin.
 
Abel's 2cp;

I understand these changes haven't fully manifested themselves, however I think there are some very problematic effects of these rules as they stand.

Obviously, the biggest problem I can see with this is Archaic progression and quest progression.

I think this is going to severely hurt combine armor acquisition and archaic spell acquisition. Not being able to pug and gem farm is going to make me sad.

I do think some content should be reserved for guilds, and I understand that a dangerous precedent has been set recently with the Sanctum and Yclist pugs, however I'm not sure the zones chosen are are justifiable. I just feel this should be modified as more of a guild flag system; wherein Guild A acquires Prison flag, and Guild B acquires Prison flag, therefore any combination of peoples from guild a and b should be allowed to go to Prison together.

I also don't understand how it's acceptable to pug the eternal well while not acceptable to pug Anos, Tansa, Denos, or Aken.

I agree with the idea of anyone being able to rumble in the standard planes (domains of the respective gods) but it creates a problem as the content for these planes wasn't designed to be balanced this way, so it requires an overhaul of old content.

- I agree with the direction, but i feel it creates a massive gap for alot of people, particularly casters and preists who want their archaics, however I don't feel they are the only ones significantly impacted. If the goal is to ammend the system, and fill the gapping hole created, i commend this, i just feel there's alot of work to do in wake of this change, a metric phuckton.
 
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Slaariel said:
... Am I alone in thinking that some content should be for guilds over individuals? It requires a lot more effort to build and maintain a guild and I think that effort should bring rewards.
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Most guilds can progress much quicker, and do content much faster, than a PUG can, isn't that reward enough? Not to mention the social aspect, easy groups with your guildmates, guildbank, etc, etc, etc.

My real question is: Why do you want to limit things to guild only? If a group of 18 people want to throw themselves at a raid target for 3 hours, what impact does that really have besides the possibility of a lost raid target (that you were too slow to get to, apparently!) What purpose does telling people how to play a game serve?
 
Mythryn said:
Most guilds can progress much quicker, and do content much faster, than a PUG can, isn't that reward enough? Not to mention the social aspect, easy groups with your guildmates, guildbank, etc, etc, etc.

My real question is: Why do you want to limit things to guild only? If a group of 18 people want to throw themselves at a raid target for 3 hours, what impact does that really have besides the possibility of a lost raid target (that you were too slow to get to, apparently!) What purpose does telling people how to play a game serve?
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Honestly Mythryn is right. Tier4-7 content can be pugged fairly easily with ringers, but attempting to pug content is not easy, at all.

Commitment and follow through is always an issue with pug'ers, zone and event knowledge is always significantly lwoer across your raidbase.

The only thing easier about a pug is not having to form a guild, the average pug goes far worse than guild raids (i guess it depends on how bad the guild is) and if for some reason a PuG manages to get a target down faster then a guild, well then the guild wasn't really trying hard enough.

Why don't we consider modifying the claiming requirements for pugs?
 
Mythryn said:
Most guilds can progress much quicker, and do content much faster, than a PUG can, isn't that reward enough?
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Can they though? I mean if we're talking successive progression encounters sure but pugs also have handfuls of dudes in them hitting up content that is like 1-2 tiers above where they might normally be and if you're carried on the backs of geared enough dudes the cherrypicking options only increase. Is that a big deal? Beats me.
 
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I had a long post all written up but Rrowrr said it better in fewer words.

The solution being proposed is to limit T8+ content to players in active guilds. I'm unclear, however, as to what the problem is that we're solving.

1) Is strat leaking to non-guild members hurting the endgame from the devs' perspective?
2) Are uber-geared-out toons and buffbots trivializing game content?
3) Are players gearing up too quickly and overcrowding high-end content?
4) Are players gearing up too quickly and then leaving the game out of boredom?
4) Are players getting to the end-game without having learned any real skills?

Yes, these can all be perceived as "problems." But there should be a primary motivation for making major changes that determine who gets to experience high-end content in the game, and I've heard differing explanations both from Tao and from Slaar. Slaar, I think, feels that T9 content is too easy to access these days, while Tao has mentioned that high-end guilds shouldn't be pugging T8 and T9 content from under-tiered players because they need quest pieces. How do we even have this conversation when we can't agree on the main problem?

From what I can see, it seems that the only people being really affected by these changes are people who can't do the guild scene for various reasons. I'm in a high-end guild but I pug frequently. Like Ynnear, pugging isn't a a source of backgearing for me - it's often primary gearing, since time commitments and the ridiculous number of rangers in our guild prevent me from progressing as quickly as most of our guild members.

As a casual player in a T10 guild, eliminating pugs at this level makes it more difficult for me to progress, as well as removes one of the more enjoyable aspects of the game. Maybe FWF roflstomped Thaz from time to time, but for me it was still challenging and the pugs were enjoyable.

Rrowrr said:
This whole game concept is built around the idea of people grouping up with whomever they want to tackle game content. And encouraging grouping and raiding, and doing so with a variety of people when they are available.

SoD is also striven for more uper content.

So if the quests are causing the raid zoned to be "over-used"... as in people are actually grouping together and running group stuff with a variety of people... then we need to fix-change the quests, not lock the zones.

I don't understand how we enhance the game experience to add content and encourage grouping when the first reaction to a problem is to shut off a big raid zone that people seem to like doing (because it somehow then becomes "over-used") and then tell people then can't group up to PuG.

As far as Teaming up between Guilds, that is just another fancy name for a PuG.

So, I guess, what we need to get clear is the intent of the game. Are we hear to group up and tackle content whenver we can get a viable force gother? Or is the game now about something else?

Given the small population of players on this server, and the fact that most of us can't be available for Guild raids 24/7 (and raid mobs spawn so randomly we can't reall plan ahead) making it hard for players to group and raid and tackle the game content just doesn't make sense to me.
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Should just lower raidmob respawn timers. All problems solved.
 
I'm just going to toss out my impressions from reading all the rawrawr threads this week.

First off, enforcing the 2/3rd's rule was somewhere between a pain in the ass and impossible, for both GMs and RLs.

The puggable/non-puggable zone division is based on the way they were designed to be entered, the type of lore the zones contain, and yes to some degree the level of the content as well. I really like that zones that require physical keys won't require 6 keys to open one door.

I know people are pissed about high end guilds being restricted, but one does not simply walk into the Prison of Admyrrza. I feel this policy is a lot more pug friendly than some of the other solutions to 2/3rds I saw publicly suggested prior to this announcement. Certainly less punitive than requiring that all members of a pug be flagged or trying to jam in "progression" flags onto raid mobs that don't have them and making everyone in the server queue up to "progress" through all the tiers.

Stryda said:
Are you guys moving combine gems around and outside of prison as well?
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Slaariel said:
Immac. armor, gems, and essences will be slowly distributed around don't worry about that... though it will take some time and you may find you've progressed past it by the time it's all out again!

Thaz 1/2 doesn't require keying as such and the difficulty is the same. Woldaff once boasted that thaz 1/2 could be done by a t5-6 guild so time to see about that!

Wisdom frags are my bad and will be dispersed into the wild next patch I am sorry for this oversight.

Quest pieces from the zone will be moved around as well.. this is a process.

It was done because there was no reason to make any T8-9 content because of the incredible mob and loot density in just 1 zone. AND there was no reason to go anywhere else really. AND it could be pugged with impunity. Getting rid of thaz has been a permanent topic in devery for years now and now I'm doing it so we can move past it.

Devs really said 'why make a raid zone, there is thaz' or 'make sure when you make that item you balance it against thaz armor' etc let me say again that thaz was designed as an END GAME ZONE hence its loot density and drops for every slot etc. Now it is a START YOUR PUGS HERE zone that design philosophy does not apply anymore.

I wasn't here when Wiz blew up the Lands of Magic but it's sorta like that.
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I guess my point is, it's better to find MORE ways for players to interact positively rather than to limit positive player interaction, which is what the removal of Thaz/new pug rules seem to do.
 
I've gotten the impression that most PuGs happen for one of three reasons:

1. People who are unwilling or unable to form stable guilds want loot on par with the people that do form guilds and take on content in a guild context;

2. Subsegments of certain guilds that have significantly different amounts of playtime want to kill things and get loot that their guild as a whole cannot muster people for at a given time.

3. People in guilds far beyond this content want drops for alts, or for new recruits without the hassle of backflagging/backgearing as a guild.

This action puts a ceiling on all three of these groups, but only the first is really permanantly inconvenienced, since the other two will be able to do the content, just not as optimally as before. If the goal is indeed to restrict people in group 1, then this seems to be working as intended.
 
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