The HoT awareness thread
- Thread starter diolas
- Start date
- Status
I was actually thinking about ch as a 60,65 spell and how to rebalance heals along the level spectrum the other day. Getting CH at 39 dramatically affected the game we now know today. Not saying we should or that it will happen, but what models for combat and healing could we come up with if ch was removed or changed to 60, 65? How would we change encounters at raid and group/solo level? Could we work out a model that relatively kept encounters at a reasonable level and not changed how we played eq as a whole; i.e. would it turn into zergfest or remove the ability to raid without large numbers etc... Just something to toss around.
Would be interesting to try though...
25% increase of Hp for wars, 18.5% pals/sks, 15% ranger, 12.5% monks/rogues/bards.. along with maybe 10% avoidance increase across the board...
Stacking of HoTs..
15% mana reduction of all cleric heals..
and removal of CH...
wonder what would happen.
25% increase of Hp for wars, 18.5% pals/sks, 15% ranger, 12.5% monks/rogues/bards.. along with maybe 10% avoidance increase across the board...
Stacking of HoTs..
15% mana reduction of all cleric heals..
and removal of CH...
wonder what would happen.
^^^^ You would either run out of mana when, oh say, Librarian was only at 70% hp, in the best case scenario that you could actually keep him alive with spam heals, or your ShadowKnight would die immediately because Librarian would still be hitting multiple times for 1000+ and the tank would have only gotten a measly 1000ish more hp then he used to have before the changes. Basing thi around a 7k knight.
a broad based change like that would do two things.
1. Break the XP game. Chars would be too powerful.
2. Break the raid game. Chars wouldn't be anywhere NEAR powerful enough.
As wiz said, it would require a complete restructuring of the GAME. Not just the way heals are handled. And as I said, CH is a spell created for tanks who hit 4k hp RAID BUFFED and clerics with 0 aas, unnable to level past 50.
1. Break the XP game. Chars would be too powerful.
2. Break the raid game. Chars wouldn't be anywhere NEAR powerful enough.
As wiz said, it would require a complete restructuring of the GAME. Not just the way heals are handled. And as I said, CH is a spell created for tanks who hit 4k hp RAID BUFFED and clerics with 0 aas, unnable to level past 50.
I dunno, I dont 100% agree that it would trash raiding that badly... ok granted thats what would happen at FIRST.. but dont you think a combination healing system could be implemented? Something where clerics 1-3 took turns chaining Blissfull light or a new heal in the 3-4k range, clerics 4-6 timed their elixir of bliss every 4 ticks or whatever it is (im not a cleric) and it brought shamans and druids into the chain... i dunno, maybe youre right wish there was a way to see cause itd be fun to try to get something different to work.
rab
Dalayan Beginner
I think you're overlooking the biggest change that would occur: mob dps output would drop accordingly. If we could not heal 5k every 2 seconds, well, then mobs would not have to DEAL 5k every 2 seconds. Things would be toned down without CH.
However, what would likely end up happening is that there would be a smaller chain set up of, say, Blissful Light, if the mob dps WERE dropped down, to, say, 2k dps, and there would be a 5 cleric, pause 10 Blissful Light chain.
As long as there is a main tank keeping agro and taking damage throughout a fight, the damage dealt to him will be tuned to the damage the healers can heal him for. While this is an absurd statement, I think it signifies that even without CH, we would be in the same damn situation, but just modified to use another large heal. I'm as big of a hater of CH as anyone, but removing is impossible, as its gap would be filled by the next biggest heal, assuming regular MT tactics stay the same.
However, if you could somehow make raids not have an MT, then things would really change and ... I dunno. I've been raiding too long here that I don't know how to imagine a 30+ people encounter without a MT and chain of heals and DPS behind them.
But I digress.
However, what would likely end up happening is that there would be a smaller chain set up of, say, Blissful Light, if the mob dps WERE dropped down, to, say, 2k dps, and there would be a 5 cleric, pause 10 Blissful Light chain.
As long as there is a main tank keeping agro and taking damage throughout a fight, the damage dealt to him will be tuned to the damage the healers can heal him for. While this is an absurd statement, I think it signifies that even without CH, we would be in the same damn situation, but just modified to use another large heal. I'm as big of a hater of CH as anyone, but removing is impossible, as its gap would be filled by the next biggest heal, assuming regular MT tactics stay the same.
However, if you could somehow make raids not have an MT, then things would really change and ... I dunno. I've been raiding too long here that I don't know how to imagine a 30+ people encounter without a MT and chain of heals and DPS behind them.
But I digress.
heh.
Infinite in the sense that it's... y'know... complete.
If a 10khp tank (which will probably neverh appen on WR) is at 1%hp, CH will heal him to 100%. Because it will heal ANY tank to full HP, I'm willing to call it infinite.
If you're chaining blissful light, You're going to have to cast it 2-3 times to get your tank to full hp. Unless you crit heal, but that's unreliable and streaky. Basically, I'm just saying that chaining small heals is nothing more than an inefficient heal chain. The fact that it's not CH your casting doesn't change anything. The real problem with the heal game, imo, is that CH is a disgusting terrible horrible spell, and heals are chainable.
Infinite in the sense that it's... y'know... complete.
If a 10khp tank (which will probably neverh appen on WR) is at 1%hp, CH will heal him to 100%. Because it will heal ANY tank to full HP, I'm willing to call it infinite.
If you're chaining blissful light, You're going to have to cast it 2-3 times to get your tank to full hp. Unless you crit heal, but that's unreliable and streaky. Basically, I'm just saying that chaining small heals is nothing more than an inefficient heal chain. The fact that it's not CH your casting doesn't change anything. The real problem with the heal game, imo, is that CH is a disgusting terrible horrible spell, and heals are chainable.
The main problem I've found with CH, and to be honest, most of SoE/Verant's problems (This is partially opinion, but it's mostly in reference to the massive item and stat point inflation that occured to compensate for the difficult raid mobs) is that they were all implemented with little to no foresight in mind.
This may sound a bit farfetched, but it's an age old problem that's deeply rooted into the game itself, and unfortunately has been built around and upon, rather then fixed.
Basically, if CH is taken out of the game, things will fall apart. Raids will be practically impossible, and clerics will be constantly puzzled as to where all that mana went. And it's not so easy as just retuning the mob dps (across the board, might I add, which would make the best of us go insane), because that will in turn change other balances.
I remember when we (The GM's at the time) brought up the original idea of removing CH, and quite frankly, I support it, if it were indeed a possibility. I think it's stupid to have one end all, be all spell that is obviously one of the class's sole spells. Unfortunately, these balancing issues arose again, and it'd be more hassle than it's worth.
Now, I'm going to assume that this entire issue lies within the realm of raiding high end mobs, because as far as I'm concerned, and from what I know, HoT's work fine in pretty much everything but high end raiding (and by work, I mean a quicker alternative than CH but more mana effective (I may be off on this part, I don't remember the specifics regarding mana use vs. healing output for the various spells))
Anyways, on the actual topic at hand: Heals over Time. What role are they meant to play? I always viewed them as a spell that could be used to guarantee that over a certain period of time, your tank will have some health, giving you some leeway in between Complete Heals (which I still loathe.) But unfortunately, as the mobs you fight get increasingly more difficult, your static (static in that they're not infinitely healing, such as CH which for all intents and purposes we can kinda consider as such) heals don't get more effective. Therefore, a HoT which is healing 400 hp every tick for six ticks (Just an example) is no longer valuable in that your tank is going to get his ass kicked by something that (example again) is hitting for 600 hp every six ticks or so (variable, obviously, but I don't want to convert it to some dps that beats 400hp every 6 seconds. I'm lazy)
I'm not quite sure as to how one could balance HoT's to be more effective, except, say, effectively changing the way spells work so they're not tick based, but rather a specific set amount of seconds so that they can heal effectively for a much shorter duration, and perhaps even constantly. Once again, I'm not sure if this is even possible given the engine, but it'd be an interesting mix up for DoT's and HoT's in general (I think a tick based system is dumb)
This is all kinda rambling, but that's my take on the healing game situation, and perhaps someone who knows better than I do (most everyone, probably) will be able to figure out a solution given what was said.
This may sound a bit farfetched, but it's an age old problem that's deeply rooted into the game itself, and unfortunately has been built around and upon, rather then fixed.
Basically, if CH is taken out of the game, things will fall apart. Raids will be practically impossible, and clerics will be constantly puzzled as to where all that mana went. And it's not so easy as just retuning the mob dps (across the board, might I add, which would make the best of us go insane), because that will in turn change other balances.
I remember when we (The GM's at the time) brought up the original idea of removing CH, and quite frankly, I support it, if it were indeed a possibility. I think it's stupid to have one end all, be all spell that is obviously one of the class's sole spells. Unfortunately, these balancing issues arose again, and it'd be more hassle than it's worth.
Now, I'm going to assume that this entire issue lies within the realm of raiding high end mobs, because as far as I'm concerned, and from what I know, HoT's work fine in pretty much everything but high end raiding (and by work, I mean a quicker alternative than CH but more mana effective (I may be off on this part, I don't remember the specifics regarding mana use vs. healing output for the various spells))
Anyways, on the actual topic at hand: Heals over Time. What role are they meant to play? I always viewed them as a spell that could be used to guarantee that over a certain period of time, your tank will have some health, giving you some leeway in between Complete Heals (which I still loathe.) But unfortunately, as the mobs you fight get increasingly more difficult, your static (static in that they're not infinitely healing, such as CH which for all intents and purposes we can kinda consider as such) heals don't get more effective. Therefore, a HoT which is healing 400 hp every tick for six ticks (Just an example) is no longer valuable in that your tank is going to get his ass kicked by something that (example again) is hitting for 600 hp every six ticks or so (variable, obviously, but I don't want to convert it to some dps that beats 400hp every 6 seconds. I'm lazy)
I'm not quite sure as to how one could balance HoT's to be more effective, except, say, effectively changing the way spells work so they're not tick based, but rather a specific set amount of seconds so that they can heal effectively for a much shorter duration, and perhaps even constantly. Once again, I'm not sure if this is even possible given the engine, but it'd be an interesting mix up for DoT's and HoT's in general (I think a tick based system is dumb)
This is all kinda rambling, but that's my take on the healing game situation, and perhaps someone who knows better than I do (most everyone, probably) will be able to figure out a solution given what was said.
Since this started talk on both HoTs and CHs i thought i would just say this:
Since there are new spells out now for wizards with pretty much no actuall mana cost, why not add something like this for clerics and take out CH? The logic is that they are both two polar oppisites and masters of their craft, I.E. wizards are the masters of magica and therefor have ultimate mastery of magical powers and clerics are the masters of of all healing and cleansing, and thus have inate power over that art as well. I would give these a long refresh timer and somehow balance them into a CH removal, as in keep CH for a while, add the new spells as a test, and then remove CH or the new spells if anything went wrong. As far as I can tell, something like this might make for a whole new approach to raiding.
Granted, the clerics would still be basically using spam heals, but, not being a cleric myself, the way I am looking at it is that some clerics will be using HoTs on the tank, and the rest will be juggling around with these heals and their normal ones for efficiancy. However it all works out im sure people will find a way to make it work for raiding, there is allways a way :lol: :lol: :lol:
Since there are new spells out now for wizards with pretty much no actuall mana cost, why not add something like this for clerics and take out CH? The logic is that they are both two polar oppisites and masters of their craft, I.E. wizards are the masters of magica and therefor have ultimate mastery of magical powers and clerics are the masters of of all healing and cleansing, and thus have inate power over that art as well. I would give these a long refresh timer and somehow balance them into a CH removal, as in keep CH for a while, add the new spells as a test, and then remove CH or the new spells if anything went wrong. As far as I can tell, something like this might make for a whole new approach to raiding.
Granted, the clerics would still be basically using spam heals, but, not being a cleric myself, the way I am looking at it is that some clerics will be using HoTs on the tank, and the rest will be juggling around with these heals and their normal ones for efficiancy. However it all works out im sure people will find a way to make it work for raiding, there is allways a way :lol: :lol: :lol:
- Status