THE GRUPO INCIDENT (legitimate discussion)

[neonovas]

Most people just want to hang around with some friends and slay dragons. At some point in the game, you start needing (at least in the minds/eyes of guild recruiters/leaders) lots of exp to continue progressing in the raid game. I have known numerous people who quit SoD because they didn't have the time or didn't want to commit the time to gain the exp points "required" to continue raiding. SoD has been around for a while, and people who have been playing consistently for years have had the time to accumulate massive amounts of exp. Now consider someone new entering the raid game, they raid a lot and get into a higher tier guild and suddenly they are expected to get to the same experience level as people who have been around for years.

this is EXACTLY why i quit. To make the problem worse, the vast majority of my guildmates (Revelation and Bane were my last 2 guilds) had already done their 5 tomes of power and maybe 5-20 other tomes and pretty much logged on to raid only since they didn't really 'need' xp like i did to get my tomes of power done
not to mention the cash you need to buy the upper charms, though those at least end eventually

 

[eqjenius]

And your extrapolation on guest lock doesn't work. Faction lock will not and should not ever be added. Its too easy to exploit.

You've got a point there. I don't have a response to that one yet. But I'll work on it.

 

[eqjenius]

this is EXACTLY why i quit. To make the problem worse, the vast majority of my guildmates (Revelation and Bane were my last 2 guilds) had already done their 5 tomes of power and maybe 5-20 other tomes and pretty much logged on to raid only since they didn't really 'need' xp like i did to get my tomes of power done
not to mention the cash you need to buy the upper charms, though those at least end eventually

Mudflation creates situations where you the bar for progression keeps getting further away. If this concerns you, you should support efforts to address it.

 

[neonovas]

Not to say that mudflation isnt bad and solutions shouldn't be looked for, but in my specific case, the 'bar for progression' was not moving (most of them logged on to raid, then logged off), it was just really far ahead, I was expected to 'catch up' and unfortunately none of my guildies/friends were around to help (and i dont really like sitting around trying to find/make a group)


edit: Take oozus comment in the Nadox thread, 12% Tome in 4 hours as 'good' so maybe i could get 3% tome/hour, that puts it at about 33hours/tome. I typically would play about 2-3hours 3 days a week, so of that time you figure i might actually be out gaining xp for 6 hours/week, thats almost 5-6 weeks/tome (and i needed 4 tomes). To me that doesnt even seem like mudflation anymore, just the "base" thats expected (well and 300-400AAs).

 

[Tarutao]

He did and he said he would be using it from now on. I don't know why this thread is still open.

Because if I close it, another will just start. Leaving this open leaves let's me leave you all to talk amongst yourselves in one thread. I've got a bag of forum breaks that I'm glad I've not had to open yet, but I'll probably open that bag before closing this thread.

---

The experience requirements comments are something I can comment on as a player, though. You can confirm this with other people in FWF; I don't get much of my experience from guild exp groups. Granted, double EXP weekend was an exception (subtract 4 from my 45 tome count if you want to exclude that), but I do a lot of random groups. I've been in plenty of <White Tees> Rust groups, I've done pickup groups in Nadox, I've dragged tons of sub-65s through First Rank and Second Rank Thurgadin bounties, I've run to groups at crac`tees or eldenals castle or everchill orcs without an invite and asked if they had room for another and gotten in groups that way, and many other things.

There's something special about meeting new people frequently and getting to group with them (especially when they're so new to SoD that they don't know who I am).

 

[jew_nose_it]

But Tao, T11 people only want to group with OTHER T11 people, everyone knows that!

On a more serious note:

That said I had a lot of fun when you were in that Remnants group I had way back when. It was the worst group ever because I was tanking and also playing Dymon and couldn't hold aggro worth shit but it was pretty fun anyways. But yeah doing a /who all 65 cleric, monk, whatever and going and making a group has always been something I enjoyed. Eventually you keep finding the same people on and play witt them more and more and trust them enough to box your scummy alt warrior so you can play ringers and gear him...wait what?

 

[jew_nose_it]

Looks like I killed this thread with another patented boring driizz story. Success!

 

[Nathasar]

I've been in plenty of <White Tees> Rust groups, I've done pickup groups in Nadox, I've dragged tons of sub-65s through First Rank and Second Rank Thurgadin bounties, I've run to groups at crac`tees or eldenals castle or everchill orcs without an invite and asked if they had room for another and gotten in groups that way, and many other things.

There's something special about meeting new people frequently and getting to group with them (especially when they're so new to SoD that they don't know who I am).

I remember a year and some months ago back when I was tryin' to get through hates fury and you sent me a tell askin' if I had room

 

[Mr_V_Light]

Not to say that mudflation isnt bad and solutions shouldn't be looked for, but in my specific case, the 'bar for progression' was not moving (most of them logged on to raid, then logged off), it was just really far ahead, I was expected to 'catch up' and unfortunately none of my guildies/friends were around to help (and i dont really like sitting around trying to find/make a group)

new level cap.

and/or

new codex of power , that's -slightly- better in effect but deletes and replaces old codex when started or completed..but doesn't require you to have finished old codex

*shrug* there's several ways to solve mudflation.. the downside is most of the obvious ones crap all over anyone that's spent any length of time at the current 'end-game'

 

[Rorne]

new level cap.

and/or

new codex of power , that's -slightly- better in effect but deletes and replaces old codex when started or completed..but doesn't require you to have finished old codex

*shrug* there's several ways to solve mudflation.. the downside is most of the obvious ones crap all over anyone that's spent any length of time at the current 'end-game'

New content rendering old content obsolete *is* mudflation

 

[Tarutao]

Gerick's right on that one. What you've suggested just now is more mudflation.

 

[fuwok]

Misplaced post.

 

[Mr_V_Light]

New content rendering old content obsolete *is* mudflation

yes...yes it is. kinda.

by definition anything new and better that's ever added is simply more mudflation.

But. the problem neonuvas was describing was how it affected a new player differently than an old player, which is somewhat unique to this game.

in most 'mainstream' games new content puts all players on a level playing field, at least briefly, in SoD new things just raise the bar higher

without any measures given to new players to 'skip' some of the dated content, the gap will only increase. ikisith was a decent stop-gap for item progression, but conversely increased the exp gap..

i suppose another simple alternative would just be to delete the codices of power altogether without adding any alternatives, but i doubt that would go over with any vets either.

so yeah, instead of simply adding more tomes to fill with exp, i suggest deleting old ones and filling new tomes with exp.

yeah it's still inflation, but it at least inverts the levels of impact that any previously added content had.

 

[Tarutao]

in most 'mainstream' games new content puts all players on a level playing field

So, are you suggesting that every time new endgame content is released that everyone be raised to the level of the then-current top guild?

You realize we aren't putting out an entirely new game every year like those billion dollar games, right? It's not reasonable for us to obsolete the entirety of existing content every year.

It wouldn't be too difficult to make every character turn level 65, get all of their AAs and 5 tomes done, and equip them with Tier 10 gear the second they log in, but then 90% of the content of the server would be obsolete and the complaints would be "there isn't enough content".

Mainstream MMORPGs nowadays are built on an exponential scale of power. Every year, the power is multiplied by X, so the power is proportional to X^Y, where Y is the number of years the game has been going. This is fine as long as the base power is only less by a factor of X and that a full game's worth of content is created every year to create an entirely new experience that exists separate of "last year's content".

SoD is built with the intent of avoiding this rate of growth while acknowledging that some growth must exist. The experience benefit is essentially logarithmic for this purpose. After getting level 65, the benefit from each experience point goes down and down and down. The first 100 AAs you get are amazing. The next 100 AAs are also great, but your hidden AAXP bonuses fade over this time. The next AAs slow down in benefit, and you start considering tomes.

The Codex of Power is then a 20% increase in power for an experience cost higher than your AAs, but the benefit is less. Past that, if a wizard wants a 4% increase in their nuke damage (equivalent to 1 codex of power, 110 AAs), they'll need to do Tome of Flame/Frost/Magic Mastery I/II. That's 6 Ikisith Tomes for a total exp cost of 280 AAs, about 2.5 volumes of the Codex of Power in total length.

What does this say? This says you can get to "competitive" for the top 5 guilds experience-wise in about 1/5 the time the established players have spent. That doesn't take into account that it's easier to get experience now than it was for the people that have been playing for years. Along the way, there's a rich amount of content that is thoroughly enjoyable that nobody wants to render obsolete (except for people that want to have end game characters and a brand new game to play and that it happen right now).

If you want to be in a high-end raiding guild, you can manage that in less than a year while experiencing a lot of content built over years by passionate developers. If all you want is to jump straight to the very top so you can "win the game", then you can do that too with sufficient effort. However, asking for everything that has been built over the last 8 years to be tossed away for a single moment of being the equal of those players who will claw and scratch their way over you to reclaim a spot at the very top (and they will succeed, they've already done it once, and I know this because I'm one of them) achieves nothing.