The Eternal Well

[Eustace]

Currently, there is a guild attempting The Eternal Well without having the Farhags flag. I petitioned and the result was that this is acceptable and not content skipping, as long as the way was clear through Farhags and nobody's well ring was used to port up.

However, if said guild beats The Well, they will gain a key that will give them access to the Generals without having the Farhags flag that you gain when defeating Farhanniath. This will also allow them to skip the fiends in the zone and give them further access to the well when Farhanniath is still up, by allowing them to simply skip the flag encounters they could not beat and move on beyond them.

If this isn't content skipping, then what is? Since Farhanniath is a flagged encounter, anything beyond him should not be accessible without his flag.

 

[Waldoff]

The well is the key to continue. This is no different than someone clearing Mephar completely but leaving Melamore up to be sniped. The farhag flag is solely for the weapon turn in.

 

[Eustace]

The well is the key to continue. This is no different than someone clearing Mephar completely but leaving Melamore up to be sniped. The farhag flag is solely for the weapon turn in.

K, if this is the case, then why are there emotes about defeating all the tribes?

Also, it is not necessary to hail the flagging npc that spawns after Farhanniath to turn in a weapon. Hailing that NPC only once and gaining the wing flag also does not permanently flag you for weapon turn-ins.

As I recall, The Eternal Well was determined to be a part of Farhags so a guild clearing through Farhanniath and hitting the Well for their first time couldn't be stopped by another guild jumping in and doing it while they were still in Farhags.

This reminds me of Corefire skipping and the recent changes that have been implemented after two guilds skipped him to get their Farhags flag.

 

[Waldoff]

There is a big difference between a guild killing corefire for you and you being able to sneak past him without aggroing. The farhag/well being the same wing thing is specifically so that you can not cockblock a guild from getting their generals key.

 

[Eustace]

The flag mob that pops after Melamor will not spawn now unless Corefire is down.

 

[Eustace]

ToT Progression:

Kill lobby. Get ring + flag.

Use ring to go to Djar. Kill Djar, get flag.

Use Djar flag to zone in to Flametalons. Beat them, get flag.

Flametalon flag lets you go to Bloodfire. Kill them, get flag.

Zone into Mephar with Bloodfire flag. Kill them, get flag.

Mephar flag lets you into Farhags. Port up. Clear Farhanniath, hail flag mob, get into Well.

Beat the Well and you get a ring that lets you port to the backside of the Well and to Tarhyl.

That's normal progression.

However, if someone clears Farhags for you and you just run through and jump into the Well, you can beat the Well and get a ring that lets you port back to the well at any time, and up to the Generals. Doing this without killing Farhanniath is content skipping - you're skipping a mob that normally blocks progression into the Well to get an item from the Well so you can keep skipping Farhanniath.

Making the Well part of Farhags so guilds can't cockblock each other from progression doesn't make skipping Farhanniath not content skipping. It's all or none here - there shouldn't be cases where it's ok to skip a mob that generates a "hail and get a flag" mob because someone else already downed him and the way is clear to what's past him.


EDIT - In reality, allowing PR to skip on into the Well without killing Farhanniath allows them to cockblock the progression of the guild who actually killed Farhanniath: Numinous.

 

[Manguadi]

However, if someone clears Farhags for you and you just run through and jump into the Well, you can beat the Well and get a ring that lets you port back to the well at any time, and up to the Generals. Doing this without killing Farhanniath is content skipping - you're skipping a mob that normally blocks progression into the Well to get an item from the Well so you can keep skipping Farhanniath.

This is still no different than someone else killing corefire and leaving melomar, which you would have no complaint with. Think of the farhag bosses as one giant corefire.

Really, the whole thing about "normal progression" is fitting for you, since you want instancing. But this game is competitive, cooperative, and shared, and sometimes that turns out bad for some and good for others.

 

[Eustace]

This is still no different than someone else killing corefire and leaving melomar, which you would have no complaint with. Think of the farhag bosses as one giant corefire.

Really, the whole thing about "normal progression" is fitting for you, since you want instancing. But this game is competitive, cooperative, and shared, and sometimes that turns out bad for some and good for others.

There's a big difference between wing minis and wing bosses that spawn flags. Exodus and Phoenix Rising both skipped Corefire - snuck past him - to get their flags into Farhags.

Farhanniath is there to block progression to the next area. This is why he spawns a flag mob. This is why he is standing on top of the Well. Yes, he is also required for turning in weapons, but that does not stop him from being the boss that needs to be killed to progress to the next area.

The Eternal Well was deemed to be claimed with Farhags to stop guilds from cockblocking another guild in progress to the well. This does not make it acceptable to simply run through the cleared wing to progress to the next area. Farhags being down by another guild does not make it acceptable to venture into the well for the first time when you have never killed the wing boss yourself. This is content skipping.

What makes it even worse content skipping is the fact that it allows a guild to continue to content skip in ToT. Beating the Well once allows a guild who has never even engaged Farhanniath to repeatedly enter the Well from behind Farhanniath, whether or not he is up. It also allows that same guild to never do that wing boss and skip to the final area, the Generals. Skipping to the very end of a zone that requires multiple flags without having even one person flagged in the entire raid breaks the 2/3 rule.

This is absolutely no different than finding a way around the depopped elementals to run up and hail the flag mob in any of the wings after another guild has cleared the wing boss. This is content skipping, it's being done by a guild that's already been punished for shady raid tactics, and it absolutely should not fly.

There should be no excuses made for blatant content skipping, ESPECIALLY when that skipping enables the same guild to repeatedly skip content they cannot beat to move on beyond it.

 

[JDJersey]

You keep making these assertions that directly contradict what the admins say. Also, you seem to think that doing an extremely hard event is akin to sneaking up for a flag. You should probly take a breather and come back in a little while. It isn't going to change today, if ever, so it'll do no good to keep pushing in such a hurry.

 

[Eustace]

What you guys are saying is that you never have to kill anything in Farhags, ever, to get to the Well and Generals. That's content skipping.

 

[JDJersey]

You seem to have a different definition of content skipping than Waldoff.

 

[Gregor]

It's supposed to be the same wing. Yes another guild killed the flagging mob. If it's the same wing and the rest is down but the well is up they should be able to venture in and poke around.

However I do see a point that Eustace is trying to make here. If any guild skips Farhanniath and somehow gets a well ring by beating the Generals. It would conflict with the 2/3 rule IMO. Even if it's the same wing Farhanniath is the flagger for the well itself.

As much as I hate to agree with Eustace on anything. I do believe he has a point about the flagging aspect for sure.

 

[Eustace]

The farhag/well being the same wing thing is specifically so that you can not cockblock a guild from getting their generals key.

That's why it's claimed as the same wing, not because you don't need to kill Farhanniath.

 

[robopirateninja]

I can't see any reason why the boss of the farhags wing (or any other raid boss) should be skippable to get past to other content.

It always really bothered me that Corefire was skippable (especially when guilds who couldn't kill him were cockblocking us from tot progression) I'm glad that that got fixed.

I would like to see Farhanniath required for progression into the area that he defends.

 

[wolfwalkerEci]

Whats making you more mad here, that they beat you to an event you wanted or that there are now more guilds killing the same mobs as Exodus?
Honostly you seem way to worked up over this. You did a good job of laying out your point of view but repeating it 3 different ways isnt going to change anything.

 

[Eustace]

Whats making you more mad here, that they beat you to an event you wanted or that there are now more guilds killing the same mobs as Exodus?
Honostly you seem way to worked up over this. You did a good job of laying out your point of view but repeating it 3 different ways isnt going to change anything.

First off, there are no upgrades left for me except off Thazeran himself and Sanctum. Furthermore, I have every single piece of loot I ever wanted in SoD. Loot drops and events are not reasons for my anger.

I'm extremely pissed off. I'm so fucking mad about this that I could chew up 10 penny nails and spit out a barbed wire fence.

Why am I mad?

Because if this is legit, then a guild can kill Melamor, get flagged for Farhags, walk straight through Farhags without touching a single mob, jump into The Eternal Well, and then go take on the Generals.

That's content skipping. That's why I'm mad. There is no way around it. You are skipping an entire wing to proceed to the next two areas, simply because that wing is down.

If you just killed the lobby and Djar is down, you can't just jump into Flametalons. Why not? An NPC checks your flags. If 2/3 of your raid isn't flagged and you manage to get into Flametalon, your raid leaders/guild officers get jailed and your loot gets revoked.

High Chieftain Farhanniath spawns an NPC that flags you for having cleared the wing. However, there is no flag check to get into The Eternal Well or to use the ring from the Well to zone into Generals. Does this mean it's ok to skip past all of Farhags and do the Well and Generals? Fuck no, that's content skipping.

The Eternal Well is claimed with Farhags. Why? To prevent a guild who has beaten the Well from cockblocking a guild that is presently clearing Farhags to get into the Well. Why is this necessary? Simple: You cannot zone into The Eternal Well unless High Cheiftain Farhanniath is down, or unless you have beaten the Well encounter before.

Skipping to my lou through a downed Farhags you don't have the flags for to jump into the next two areas is content skipping. Content skipping is unacceptable in any other form whatsoever. No exceptions should be made for it on this circumstance.

 

[JDJersey]

The well is the key to continue. This is no different than someone clearing Mephar completely but leaving Melamore up to be sniped. The farhag flag is solely for the weapon turn in.

You seem to be ignoreing this part. You keep saying that its like skipping an entire wing. It isn't. Is it content skipping if its clear Caliph Askaril, they kill it and go straight to a (somehow) cleared Dawnfire and then go straight to an already cleared (somehow) Scorith, and then straigh to a cleared (somehow) Melamor?

If not, then I don't see how this is any more content skipping. You seem to think that killing the well is the same as sneaking in and getting flagged. It's not. It is a difficult encounter. And it is the end of the Farhag Wing. You're operating under a mistaken assumption, given what Waldoff said as true. I'm sorry, but your points seem to be reliant on a straw-man :/

 

[Manguadi]

That's content skipping. That's why I'm mad. There is no way around it. You are skipping an entire wing to proceed to the next two areas, simply because that wing is down.

Content Skipping and content skipping are two different things. One is the words in english. One is the phrase we use in SoD land. The sod land phrase is decided by the people who make the zones, and no one else. Sure it's up for discussion, but as the zones creator expressed his intentions regarding this already, I think the discussion is over.

If you just killed the lobby and Djar is down, you can't just jump into Flametalons. Why not? An NPC checks your flags. If 2/3 of your raid isn't flagged and you manage to get into Flametalon, your raid leaders/guild officers get jailed and your loot gets revoked.

I don't know why you keep trying to create well and farhag wing as two separate entities. Not more than a few weeks ago it was said that well and farhag are claimed as one wing. This seems to be consistent with that assertion.

 

[Salarus]

"I'm sorry, but your points seem to be reliant on a straw-man :/ "

I fail to see the straw man fallacy in any of his argumetns, especially because he is the one presenting them, then reiterates the same points.

I personally do feel this is content skipping, but hey, it's not my server, so it should be left up to the great people who made this zone.

 

[Eustace]

There is a big difference between a guild killing corefire for you and you being able to sneak past him without aggroing. The farhag/well being the same wing thing is specifically so that you can not cockblock a guild from getting their generals key.

Exodus and Phoenix Rising both sneaked past Corefire without aggroing. It was changed after PR did it. Now, the flag NPC will not spawn when you kill Melamor unless Corefire is dead already. It's also bugged - if you kill Melamor before killing Corefire, you have to petition to get your flag.

Farhag and the Well are claimed as the same wing to prevent cockblocking. This was declared back when I was in Ruin. (And I was in the Well when Kade activated the encounter on us as we were recovering from a wipe, after this was declared.)

The well is the key to continue. This is no different than someone clearing Mephar completely but leaving Melamore up to be sniped. The farhag flag is solely for the weapon turn in.

I absolutely agree with this to a point. If you have beaten Farhanniath, you have every right to run through a cleared Farhags to get into the Well. However, if you have not beaten Farhanniath EVER, absolutely no one in the raid whatsoever, you do not belong in the Well. Allowing one raid to skip Farhags allows any other raid to never kill a single mob in Farhags. Ever.

I also disagree with the weapon turn-in statement. The flagging NPC that spawns on Farhanniath's death does NOT flag you to turn in a weapon. Rather, the quest turn-in NPC's will only accept a turn-in from a person who was in the raid that killed Farhanniath when they spawned. These are two separate flags. It is possible to never hail to get a single flag in Farhags and still be able to complete your quest weapon.

When the skipping issue in ToT first came up with Corefire, we (as in, Ruin) were told that Exodus could not get flagged because they had not killed Corefire, and that it was legitimate to simply skip Corefire because it was a pathing mob. This was not the case. Almost a year later, Phoenix Rising got flagged for Farhags the same way and Melamor's flagging NPC was changed. Now, no other guilds are capable of skipping Corefire to go into Farhags.

This is the same situation with the Well. If you do not need to kill Farhags to get into the well, ever, then that entire wing should be depopped. If the Well is actually the end boss of Farhags, then you should not be able to port up behind Farhanniath to jump into the well. If Farhanniath's flagging NPC really has no purpose whatsoever, then it should not be spawned, and the zone-in NPC should not reveal whether or not you have a flag for killing Farhags.