SoD 2.0 - Balance Topic II

[Malluas]

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but why are all in-door zones flagged so that you can't pass into them with out-door buffs?  since MOST raids are done in in-door zones that makes half of a druids buffs useless, and since no one ever exp's in out-door zones, druid buffs are useless in grouping for exp as well.

even if druids are meant to be useless except as a cleric when you already have two clerics in a raid, at least make it so we aren't useless in exp groups

cast potg on yourself and zone into the inside zone. then edit this post  :dance:



after reviewing my post.. just quit being a druid plz..

 

[volvov2]

Also, the three pull in Inner Prison is especially brutal now with such limited healers. If it could be looked at, or do something different, it would be cool, because 3 mobs of that difficulty, is a luck based fight.

 

[tinkaa]

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but why are all in-door zones flagged so that you can't pass into them with out-door buffs? since MOST raids are done in in-door zones that makes half of a druids buffs useless, and since no one ever exp's in out-door zones, druid buffs are useless in grouping for exp as well.

even if druids are meant to be useless except as a cleric when you already have two clerics in a raid, at least make it so we aren't useless in exp groups

I xp in outdoor zones a lot with my druid. She can reach 200+ dps, without having relic nuke/dot. I know she does way less in indoor zones, but I still nuke, root, dot with her in xp groups. I still think druids are one of the most versatile classes.
I'm pretty sure stamina regen, potg/won, ds and sos help the survivability (or at least quality if you want) of the group/raid in many occassions.

 

[Waldoff]

any way we can get the % effect we are having when we trigger aux tank or at least have a message that the max aux tanking has already been reached to keep us from putting too many in front when it isnt doing us any good but taking repostes

also the 2 and 3 pulls in prison are TONS harder now with the change in healer availability. 2 healers max per tank is not enough by far on those mobs

 

[volvov2]

Posting to clarify what woldaff said.

2 Clerics
2 Druids
1 Shaman

are not enough to to the 2 pulls of statues This is with top equiped clerics, druids, shaman and a 9600 and a 10000 hp warrior. And especially not the 3 pull of casters (with 6 healers even) because one person is getting healed by a druid and a shaman at best (which is pretty risky for how hard they nuke.

 

[Waldoff]

also now that aux tanking is in, the more mobs you have the less tanks you have to spread around and the more DPS the two mobs do

 

[gtoo]

- Lowered the melee damage done by both Mirror Golems.

I heard mirror golems were a bit on the easy side atm. Not so much their melee damage as their hit points being too low. Second hand info I know but I still think they should be looked at.

 

[Lufia]

I heard mirror golems were a bit on the easy side atm. Not so much their melee damage as their hit points being too low. Second hand info I know but I still think they should be looked at.

We did mirrors last night and although we knew the strat before, it was a walk in the park. They are roughly 75% as difficult as Mani's, given the amount of dmg done to tanks, time taken to kill, etc. I'd like to see their HP retuned, and their dps ever so slightly increased. I think that our healers ended the fight with 60-or-so mana, and once the mobs were slowed we had little to no trouble keeping tanks up.

 

[Xeldan]

Yeah mirror hp definitely needs a bump up, I noticed it near the end of last week.

 

[Eldorath]

Well, actually I was at 25 mana, so their DPS wasn't that far off..

 

[antihelei]

We did mirrors last night and although we knew the strat before, it was a walk in the park. They are roughly 75% as difficult as Mani's, given the amount of dmg done to tanks, time taken to kill, etc. I'd like to see their HP retuned, and their dps ever so slightly increased. I think that our healers ended the fight with 60-or-so mana, and once the mobs were slowed we had little to no trouble keeping tanks up.

yeah only like 1 of our healers was at 60 or so mana and it was lytec

 

[Andorraa]

Something was brought to my attention by a little bird in a well known guild. . .

It seems to me like the changes made to raids have had little to no effect on the ease of raiding for smaller guilds.  Empire tried Plaguefang the other day, and he hit just as hard, if not harder, than the last time we took him down.  Even with Erik's resiliance and Vindicator's stance, he was still hitting me for about 7-800.  With no CH chain and only three clerics on a raid, it seems that the overlap heals waste a good chunk of mana.

If you can only have three clerics, that means you have to have an influx of inferior healers (to clerics) such as druids and shamen to heal offtanks.  This takes up even more slots on the 18-person only raids.  Slots that could be filled with more DPS.

Wiz, I understand fully that you were trying to make the smaller guilds able to raid bigger things, but so far that I have seen, it's become a lot harder.  Empire was regularly able to take Enforcer Husrag in Stormkeep, and now we get to about 60% and wipe because we have no mana left to heal the man tank.  This brings DPS into the equation. . .  With more healers to step up and heal after others are oom, that takes more slots that can be filled with DPS, and causes more of a damage problem.  We can only have three wizards on a raid now, that cuts possible DPS by a lot.  If you have three mages and three wizards, then yes that offsets the cap a bit, but how many guilds can say they have the absolute perfect balance of clerics/tanks/mages/wizards/other DPS?

Only one.  Forsaken.

These new changes benefit them most of all, especially when Linken and Zhak can Auxiliary tank a prison mob with no problem at all, and have archaic heals being spammed on them.  With a mana pool of 8000, it doesn't really matter that you overlap heals.  With a raidforce of 18, they can have the three clerics/tanks/wizards whatever with no problem at all.


While I'm sort of complaining, it's also more of a suggestion that if you wanted to make things easier, start by taking away the three-character cap on raids, or bring a CH chain back.  I don't understand why that was taken away, even with the short explanation given.  From a roleplay perspective, it seems strange and/or impossible to me that a group of six wizards can't journey around and blow things to pieces.

My point is, the changes have not helped at all, and I think some things need to change fast.

 

[gtoo]

Something was brought to my attention by a little bird in a well known guild. . .

It seems to me like the changes made to raids have had little to no effect on the ease of raiding for smaller guilds.  Empire tried Plaguefang the other day, and he hit just as hard, if not harder, than the last time we took him down.  Even with Erik's resiliance and Vindicator's stance, he was still hitting me for about 7-800.  With no CH chain and only three clerics on a raid, it seems that the overlap heals waste a good chunk of mana.

This is a perfect oppurtunity to help teach your healers to be efficent with their heals. Cast your heal, watch the tanks health, and if its not going to do more than 1/2 the base or so duck to save the mana. You don't need to just stand there and press the button every 6 seconds.

Wiz, I understand fully that you were trying to make the smaller guilds able to raid bigger things, but so far that I have seen, it's become a lot harder.  Empire was regularly able to take Enforcer Husrag in Stormkeep, and now we get to about 60% and wipe because we have no mana left to heal the man tank. 

Perhaps you are jaded after using Erik with a 36 man setup. Comming from that same situation, I know that having a tank who is geared to several tiers above you can dramatically change the level of raid mobs you are able to secessfully bring down. You were able to just throw numbers at the healing problem, whereas now it is obvious to you that your healers and dps are trying to raid at a level which they aren't properly geared for.

This brings DPS into the equation. . .  With more healers to step up and heal after others are oom, that takes more slots that can be filled with DPS, and causes more of a damage problem.  We can only have three wizards on a raid now, that cuts possible DPS by a lot. 

Raid mob's hit points were reduced pretty drasticlly to compensate for this.

If you have three mages and three wizards, then yes that offsets the cap a bit, but how many guilds can say they have the absolute perfect balance of clerics/tanks/mages/wizards/other DPS?

Only one.  Forsaken.

I am not so sure Forsaken has a perfect balance, but we run with what we can get. I can also name a number of other guilds who seem to be doing alright with this, most notibly Steel, who probably has a better balance than anyone.

These new changes benefit them most of all, especially when Linken and Zhak can Auxiliary tank a prison mob with no problem at all, and have archaic heals being spammed on them.  With a mana pool of 8000, it doesn't really matter that you overlap heals.  With a raidforce of 18, they can have the three clerics/tanks/wizards whatever with no problem at all.

This paragraph is where you really lose focus. I am sure that your tanks can stand up to a trash mob on your tier just fine, and could probably be adequately healed by the heals which are obtained at your tier (there are no archaic heals btw). I know you are probably trying to exaggerate a bit, but its hard to have a legitimate balancing qualm when your experience is based on using a tank with prison gear to tank much lower tierd mobs.

 

[Andorraa]

You're missing the point.  I'm not ripping on Forsaken at all, for some reason you seem to think so. . .

My point is not that I'm jaded, my point is that we have the same amount of people coming to our raids, but it has gotten twice as hard to do things.  Wiz has made the beginning/middle of the endgame harder.  There is a considerable gap in the things we can raid now and the things we could raid before.  It's not really about fine-tuning, it's more about if you wait on a heal, someone else will override you anyway.  When your tank's health goes from 90% down to 40% because he's getting quadded for 1000 and nuked for just as much, there is no way to really "wait your turn."  That's how wipes usually happen.

Regardless, I think it's become harder to do things if you're not already geared and AAed out.  Sure, we have Erik as a Main tank, but that doesn't mean we can walk into Sepulcher and take the zone.

I was merely using forsaken as an example, because all of you are Endgame-geared.

Your main tank doesn't make your guild.  Beforehand we were using Darm, who isn't exactly our tier either but is far less AAed and decently far behind in equipment.  We still took Husrag, and every mob in Stormkeep (Minus Rymaz Sunbane, who wasn't up).  It's not really about discipline, it's about difficulty.  Because you're in the endgame you don't feel it as much as we do.

 

[Wiz]

I'll look into the situation on the lower tier and see if adjustments are in order.

 

[gtoo]

My point is not that I'm jaded, my point is that we have the same amount of people coming to our raids, but it has gotten twice as hard to do things. 

I really cannot possibly think how this can be true.

 

[Andorraa]

Thanks Wiz.

Guyver, I'm mainly talking about the encounters we've had as of late. Plaguefang, Husrag, and Master of the Everchill seem to hit just as hard as they did previously, with seemingly little to no reduction in hitpoints. Perhaps I am mistaken, and if so I apologize.

However, if I am right, then there needs to be some more balancing done until smaller guilds can get their Relic spells/buffs and continue on to future encounters. That CH chain was a godsend in terms of mana conservation, and maybe a slight lowering of the mana cost might make the world of a difference in the absence of a chain.

On a side note, I heard through the grapevine that Xeldan was shadowing some raids on the upper level, maybe he should head over to Stormkeep the next time we take Husrag?

 

[Momatose]

On a side note, I heard through the grapevine that Xeldan was shadowing some raids on the upper level, maybe he should head over to Stormkeep the next time we take Husrag?

i believe this offer still stands for anyone, if you contact him and he's available

And actually as a followup to my post - I am most definitely willing to come watch your raid and can make a good judgement call on retuning stuff through that. Just let me know of your raid time in IRC or something and if I'm not already watching someone then I'll be more than happy to tag along and see if things don't seem right. I spent a good chunk of last night with Forsaken in CoDarkness to get a few of the encounters tuned properly with the new caps, and they also helped me find a couple bugs with the final encounter in the zone which cropped up due to the patch.

 

[Lufia]

However, if I am right, then there needs to be some more balancing done until smaller guilds can get their Relic spells/buffs and continue on to future encounters. That CH chain was a godsend in terms of mana conservation, and maybe a slight lowering of the mana cost might make the world of a difference in the absence of a chain.

Draxx, I'm going to reply to your last three posts in one small paragraph as I believe you've made some great points spread across each. First, I would highly recommend that you start working with a cap of 2 of each class, as I believe that this is how the raids will eventually be limited. I realize that this means even less healers than you're currently working with, but managing your Druids/Shamans in place of your clerics really doesn't put you at that much of a disadvantage! Yes, the CH chain is gone, but it has been replaced by a much faster-paced encounter. The DPS issue as well doesn't seem to be as important because mobs' HP has been dramatically reduced. I think that you'll find that the new changes have made things much more feasible for a guild such as yourself who can still field 18 that might not exactly be the ideal setup.

Before you jump down my throat for saying 'HEY JUST KEEP TRYING!' let me add this second point: Lower-end mobs seem to need alot more retuning. We were told by a GM that mobs were retuned based on HP, and that reductions didn't hit some of the lower-hp mobs. While this was more evident in our case with multi-mob encounters (Fleshrotters, Mani's, Mirrors), I'm sure that it also applies to some of the easier bosses. If you're having problems with specific encounters, I strongly suggest that you speak with a GM regarding retuning and try to tweak your raid setup slightly. If you're bringing 3 wizards and 3 mages for DPS but still having a hard time keeping your healer up, you might want to consider a paladin for SSS or a bard for some mitigation songs. I realize that this won't make all the difference, but every little bit helps! Those utility classes that were once seen as fairly useles on 36-man raids are now essential!

As a sidenote to Xeldan, we share Ruin's sentiment in thanking you for looking into each encounter directly. We've had some trouble with a few but overall it's been very enjoyable experience... MUCH more rewarding than the old model. I do think that the Mani's fight, while nearing perfection, could use a slight tweak. We were under the impression that the Earth elemental (first mob) was supposed to have the highest HP, but the 3rd mob (Water, I believe?) literally seems to have twice the HP of Earth, as does its pets. It takes MUCH longer to drop this mob and I'm not sure if it's intended to be so much more difficult than the rest of not.

Regardless, keep up the good work and Draxx I'm extremely excited to see Empire raiding again. Good luck and let me know if you guys need any help in the future.

 

[GuiardoTuneweaver]

My point is not that I'm jaded, my point is that we have the same amount of people coming to our raids, but it has gotten twice as hard to do things. Wiz has made the beginning/middle of the endgame harder.

Revelation has not encountered this problem, and we seem to be around the same tiers as you are. Yes, mobs hit as hard, but as has been pointed out they have half the HP. We have been able to take out targets after the change that we struggled with before, mostly due to the fact that we can get 18 people together most nights, but rarely 36.

There is a considerable gap in the things we can raid now and the things we could raid before. It's not really about fine-tuning, it's more about if you wait on a heal, someone else will override you anyway.

Or, you keep interrupting when your heal will be ineffective until others start to run out of mana, then you'll have mana left to keep healing. Smart patching can be almost as mana effective (if not more), and less error and timing prone than a CH chain when done correctly.

Regardless, I think it's become harder to do things if you're not already geared and AAed out. Sure, we have Erik as a Main tank, but that doesn't mean we can walk into Sepulcher and take the zone.

As was pointed out before, maybe some of your problems are because your tank is much further ahead in progression than the rest of your forces. Do you clerics have all their healing AAs maxed out? If you're trying to patch Erik with clerics that do not have all the healing AAs, then yes, a CH chain would be much more mana efficient, and the removal of CH may force you to do targets more on a tier appropriate to the rest of the raid force, rather than just of 1 character.

Also, have you taken into account and experimented with the new auxiliary tanking changes? These changes can drastically affect DPS, and require different strategies than before the change.