Shaman as a healer.

S

Snake

Dalayan Elder
I think its pretty silly how there are only 2 healer class's in SoD. Cleric being the best, Druids with their recent changes, actually do very well now.
The Shaman is no healer. It has also been made clear again and again, that the Shaman is a light DPS with the ability to slow and spam heal 1 target, but that doesnt make him a healer.
In order to be a healer, you need to be able to heal your whole group.

Also it really strikes me as odd that the Shaman and Druid share the same line of single target heals from lvl 1 to 55. Then the next heals they get, the Druids get a heal that is twice as a good as the Shaman's single target heal, even with the Relic Shaman heal, the Druids single target heal is still alot better...

The Shaman runic spells are both heals, and both next to useless.
Please put the Shaman back in to the healing game, remove the snare and slow from their runic hot, do something about the runic2 (i already suggested a fast heal that might do group healing) and please make Woundbane (and Mend Wound) more compatible with Revitalize, i suggest Woundbane cast time be lowered to 3.25 seconds (and Mend Wounds lowered to 3.75 seconds).


As it is right now....
Last single target heal Shaman and Druid share, Close Wound:
295 Mana
5 sec cast time
1250 Heal
H/S: 250, H/M: 4.24

Then at level 61 the Shaman gets his healing upgrade:
Mend Wounds (lvl 61 shm single target heal)
280 Mana
4.5 sec cast time
1400 Heal
H/S: 311.11, H/M: 5

Decent upgrade, almost 25% more healing and 18% mana efficiency.

At lvl 63 Druids get their upgrade:
Revitalize (lvl 63 druid single target heal)
340 Mana
4 sec cast time
2045 Heal
H/S: 511.25, H/M: 6.02

Now thats an upgrade! 104.5% more healing and its 42% more mana efficient...
Its more than 4 times the improvement healing wise and more than dubble as good an improvement mana wise, than that of the Shaman's. Its also alot better than the Shaman Relic...

Relic: Woundbane (Shaman Relic single target heal):
285 mana
3.75 cast time
1650 Heal
H/S: 440, H/M: 5.79
(if Woundbane was changed to 3.25 second cast time, it would be H/S: 507.69. Still inferior to Revitalize, but not by much).

TL;DR
I mean... Come on.
 
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I can't speak for everyone, as not everyone posts on the forums, but for the people that do post -- no one agrees with you, Shaman are a very strong class.

Shaman have a very specific niche that they do very well at and I don't see that changing. You are completely going about this comparison the wrong way. Shaman are such a more diverse class than "compare my big heal to their big heal", they have by far the best in combat mana regen of any class in the game, they have the best slow in the game (which you have yet to prove useless as you claim), and they are by far the best dps of the three priest classes.

I would, albeit grudgingly, agree that Mend Wounds could probably use a little bump.
 
druids get a slightly better heal (even thats debatable due to cast time) because you get to do more dps and have infinite mana

the class is probably just not for you, shamans are an excellent class and dont need a buff
 
I expected another shaman thread from you weeks ago, this one is a little late.

Well, better luck with this one.
 
Mend wounds is fine from 61 to noobish 65. But by the time yer t5ish trying to get woundbane its pretty sad. Should add a non relic 65 heal to close the mend wounds / wb gap.

--

Sounds like thanman should do some slow parsin since everyone thinks omg best slow its amazing.
I expect on exp mobs it looks about like this:

Unslowed took 200 dps. Required 3 heals to kill mob.
Slowed took 180 dps. Required 3 heals to kill mob.
 
If Shaman's are OP healers, then deff Druids needs to be nerfed.
Check out what the math says about HoT's vs Woundbane with CSI 7..

Shaman, chaining Woundbane on 1 target:
285 Mana
3.225 sec cast time (+2.5 sec recast when chaining, 5.725)
1650 Heal
H/S: 288.21, H/M: 5.79.

You can cast Hots pre engage, so im not going to count in cast time on the Druid. Once his chain is running though, he has a decent amount of time to do group heals dots dd's or even do the same cycle on a 2nd char...

Druid, chaining Relic + Ancient hot on 1 target:
1035 Mana (Relic has 3 tics, Ancient 6, so i compare a cycle of 6 tics, 325x2 + 385)
36 sec cast time (cycle is 6 x 6 seconds, but only actually 10.3 sec cast and 7.5 recast, 18.2 sec spare time)
8370 Healing (890x3x2 + 505x6)
H/S: 232.5, H/M: 8.09.

Druid single target hots vs Shaman Relic heal conclusion.
The Shaman can heal 24% more but the Druid hots are 40% more Mana efficient AND the Druid has 18.2 seconds of time to cast other spells...


Shaman's are OP healers? And they have unlimited mana? Seriously, come on, stop being cliché already, sigh.
 
Raxton said:
Unslowed took 200 dps. Required 3 heals to kill mob.
Slowed took 180 dps. Required 3 heals to kill mob.
Click to expand...

I could, but who slows anymore?

Saved two old posts from Zaela about slow mitigation and Aux'ing, this will explain pretty clearly, what has the biggest cut on mobs MELEE dps (remember that, its only the melee part, its not like it lower's Spell Damage, single target or AE, nor does it do anything to slow down DB's, Ramp, WW, PS ect ect. Actually, Aux'ing will reduce Rampage, WW, PS ect, damage.)


Slow mitigation:
Pretty much everything you'll fight at 65 mitigates slow by 25-30%, with more on certain raid mobs and some harder exp mobs here and there.

As the linked post says, slow mitigation is an adjustment, not a cap. Even if a mob has 90% slow mitigation (there are one or two raid bosses out there) you'll still want to use the best slow you have and full focuses, as with shaman mask it would be Turgur's: ((50+5)*10)/100 = 5% slowed (.5 truncated), Archaic: ((55+5)*10)/100 = 6% slowed.


Auxing:
The most any single character/pet can lower a mob's damage via aux is 15%. Both max HP and AC count toward auxing. The higher level the target mob is, the more HP and/or AC a character will need to aux at maximum effectiveness; the HP and AC of a fairly high-end (tier 9+?) tank will be needed for them to hit 15% aux effectiveness against a level 68 mob. (In terms of augs, an AC aug will add more toward auxing compared to an HP aug; each point of AC is worth 5 times as much as a point of HP.)

The most a mob can be auxed down is 20% of their base damage. However, higher level mobs start with a bonus; anything over level 60 gets a 20% bonus to their base damage at the beginning of the aux calc, and so will hit for 120% of their base damage if no one is auxing them. In other words, they'd need to be lowered by 40% to be fully auxed down. So you'd need at least 2 tanks and a melee at tier 9ish, or a tank and more melees. On red con mobs, at least. So if you want to count the bonus damage, you can lower a mob's total melee effectiveness by 33% (120-40 = 80) at most. Which is a lot, I guess.
 
Snake said:
... anything over level 60 gets a 20% bonus to their base damage at the beginning of the aux calc, and so will hit for 120% of their base damage if no one is auxing them.
Click to expand...

This is commenly misunderstood as "slow finally landing".
 
You post a lot of useless heal comparisons, but you've yet to articulate any reasons why you think shamans deserve to heal as well as druids or clerics.
 
Snake said:
If Shaman's are OP healers, then deff Druids needs to be nerfed.
Check out what the math says about HoT's vs Woundbane with CSI 7..

Shaman, chaining Woundbane on 1 target:
285 Mana
3.225 sec cast time (+2.5 sec recast when chaining, 5.725)
1650 Heal
H/S: 288.21, H/M: 5.79.

You can cast Hots pre engage, so im not going to count in cast time on the Druid. Once his chain is running though, he has a decent amount of time to do group heals dots dd's or even do the same cycle on a 2nd char...

Druid, chaining Relic + Ancient hot on 1 target:
1035 Mana (Relic has 3 tics, Ancient 6, so i compare a cycle of 6 tics, 325x2 + 385)
36 sec cast time (cycle is 6 x 6 seconds, but only actually 10.3 sec cast and 7.5 recast, 18.2 sec spare time)
8370 Healing (890x3x2 + 505x6)
H/S: 232.5, H/M: 8.09.

Druid single target hots vs Shaman Relic heal conclusion.
The Shaman can heal 24% more but the Druid hots are 40% more Mana efficient AND the Druid has 18.2 seconds of time to cast other spells...
Click to expand...

You are comparing apples and oranges here. Druids have no control over when their HoTs heal the target, it is every 6 seconds. But shaman have a much easier time making sure they get max effectiveness out of their heals. You cannot compare H/S and H/M between direct heals and HoTs, it may look like there is a discrepancy on paper, but we all know things are different in game (except maybe you).


Snake said:
Shaman's are OP healers? And they have unlimited mana? Seriously, come on, stop being cliché already, sigh.
Click to expand...

Anyone that says they have unlimited mana is figuratively speaking. However, it is true that there are very very few fights that Shaman do actually run out of mana. One of those fights that I have seen Shaman run out of mana is Warchief Rujik Moktar, where Zurkka casts 3x as many spells as the other priests.

If a Shaman utilizes their AA canni (on most raid fights it isn't practical to spam the spell canni) they get ~15 mana regen per second more than a Cleric or Shaman (factoring in Mask of the Hunter and Relic: Bulwark). Just incase you can't do the math that equates to over 30 overcap FT. If the awesomeness of that is lost on you then I do not know what to say other than it is probably in Exodus' best interests that you do not play anymore.

Snake said:
Slow mitigation:
Pretty much everything you'll fight at 65 mitigates slow by 25-30%, with more on certain raid mobs and some harder exp mobs here and there.

As the linked post says, slow mitigation is an adjustment, not a cap. Even if a mob has 90% slow mitigation (there are one or two raid bosses out there) you'll still want to use the best slow you have and full focuses, as with shaman mask it would be Turgur's: ((50+5)*10)/100 = 5% slowed (.5 truncated), Archaic: ((55+5)*10)/100 = 6% slowed.
Click to expand...

These percentages look to be really small but don't let them fool you, when a mob can hit 4 times a round for 2k (not uncommon at the high end) that is a significant amount of damage prevented per round (~400-500). Show me another class that can provide that type of mitigation for your tank without sacrificing more than the cast time of a single spell.
 
Widan said:
You post a lot of useless heal comparisons, but you've yet to articulate any reasons why you think shamans deserve to heal as well as druids or clerics.
Click to expand...

I never said that the should be able to heal as well as either. Can you please quote where you see me say that.
 
Obscenitor said:
You are comparing apples and oranges here.
Click to expand...

Hots are fire and forget, this is not necessarily a good thing, the mob can change target, and your hots already cast, are wasted. So Hots vs Single target heals, i am comparing a more flexible heal to a non flexible heal, have to take that in to account when you see the huge gab in mana efficiency.
But with hots you are more flexible to cast other spells and many other arguments... Just saying "Apple's and Oranges, i rest my case" is a bit dumb though, cause after all they are both single target heals, and almost always there will be a tank who needs this healing.


As for Can5...
Gives 1066 mana every 3 minuts (+2.5 sec cast time + you might miss that its up), thats 1066 per 30 ticks, thats about 35 mana regen extra.

So what can the Shaman do with it? He cant group heal, cause he dont have that spell.
(and to clarify, i dont want a group heal. Just remove the drawbacks from runic1, and do something about runic2. My suggestion for runic 2 is a hybrid group heal, but its not a guaranteed group heal).

He can single target heal. So lets see what Druid hots costs over 3 minuts, and what Shm heal costs....
Shaman can cast 31 Woundbanes (with CSI 7) in 3 minuts, for 8835 mana.
Druid sustaining 2 hots for 3 minuts will cost 5175 mana. (For 8835 mana the Shm gets 51150 heal, Druid gets 41850, so Druid would have to cast 4.5 revitalize at 340 a pop, total mana 6705)
So that 1066 extra mana is fast equalized, as after 3 minuts the Druid would spend 6705 mana, and the Shaman 8835-1066= 7769.
Thats 1064 less mana for the Druid even with can5 aided Shaman...
(Also keep in mind, this free's up the Druid to cast loads of other spells, while the Shaman can not)


I can also do some DPS math, but long story short, Shm would win vs. 1 target, Druid would win big if 3 or more (Druid Runic2 is pretty damn nice).
 
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His point is still valid. You have quoted a lot of numbers without justification of why shaman numbers need to be better.

So far your arguement is similar to my neighbor has a nice car so I deserve a better one too.

Explain to us why you think you deserve the increase in healing without comparing it to Druids or clerics healing abilities.
 
Moraelintz said:
His point is still valid. You have quoted a lot of numbers without justification of why shaman numbers need to be better.

So far your arguement is similar to my neighbor has a nice car so I deserve a better one too.

Explain to us why you think you deserve the increase in healing without comparing it to Druids or clerics healing abilities.
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The Car analogy makes no sense. We are playing a game of numbers, visualized by pixle's, you do realize that right?
(An analogy that could have made some sense is two twin brothers, from the age of 1 to 55 was always treated differently by their parrents, but they always got the same means of transport, till one day 1 brother got a motorcycle and the other brother got a bicycle...)

As for my "numbers with out any meaning in them self", for starters i pointed out how the Druid and the Shaman share single target heals from lvl 1-55, but from there on the Druid just get stupid good compared to the Shaman. Thats WHILE the Druid also get stupid good group heals (and buffs, ports, pet, evac, track, debuffs, dps ect ect..).


But its really very very simple. In order to work as a healer you have to be able to heal not only 1 target, but also your group. So remove the drawbacks from Runic1. It wont make the Shm in any way near as good a group healer as the Druid, but atleast they can do a little.

For the single target heal, they are both suppose to be single target healers, yet the Druid is able to heal for like twice as much as the Shaman; can easily do the same
healing as a spamming Shm for alot less mana AND have tons of time to cast other stuff, or just melee...
 
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Obscenitor said:
Show me another class that can provide that type of mitigation for your tank without sacrificing more than the cast time of a single spell.
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Beastlords, Bards and Enchanters get very close. If you up against many mobs, Bards AE slow is just rediculous much better than anything the shm can produce.
 
The car analogy explained is that you see someone else with something nice and you feel entitled to the same thing, or something comparable.

I understand that shamans and Druids from 1-55 get same direct heals but have you considered that around there is where the class differences start to become more distinct? Where Druids focus more on healing and shamans start to focus on more utility? While Druids are able to heal for more they can not heal for as long or with the ability to do anything in between.
 
So what weve learned from this thread, shaman aoe slow needs a faster cast time and that noone knows how good cripple is or malo is.

Also that shamans are the new sk vs paladins.

Snake said:
Beastlords, Bards and Enchanters get very close. If you up against many mobs, Bards AE slow is just rediculous much better than anything the shm can produce.
Click to expand...


Bard aoe slow cant land if they cannot be snared which is a very common thing. Also a possible negative thing.
 
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Wait.. you mean this? That is a stop-gap mostly, until the real slows can be landed. And iirc, anything immune to the run-speed change would cause the song to be resisted. Nevermind the fact that we are comparing 40% with the 55% a shammy archaic can do (with a -100 resist adjust to boot). Or the shammy ae slow, which is 50%, and doesn't have the snare issue...
 
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