shadowknights

[Manguadi]

Each class should do something exceptionally well. It's just more fun if you can do something no one else can; something really cool that distinguishes you from all the other overlapping classes in sod.

-bards have songs and amazing versatility
-beastlords have like 20k hp with pet stance and amazing buffs
-rangers have awesome (and free) ranged dps and a powerful tanking stance
-enchanters have mez and mana regen
-warriors have foelock and impressive mitigation
-paladins have AE aggro and self heals and reasonably good dps for a tank
-necromancers can do more damage with a full bar of mana than any other class
-magicians can sustain very high AE dps and have a reasonably good tank for a pet
-wizards have the largest nukes and highest burst dps
-rogues do absurd sustained dps, are great scouts, and can double their damage temporarily
-monks are good tanks, good dps, and invaluable pullers
-clerics have decent dps with their ancient hammer and the best heals by far
-druids have great versatility between powerful healing and decent dps
-shaman have infinite mana
-shadowknights have....

The best aggro?
No, that's a wizard.

The best pulling?
Nah, all monk all the time.

The best mitigation?
It's as good as a paladin.

A decent stance?
Well, it doesn't last very long and it doesn't seem to do much.

Good dps?
They only get double attack.

Lifetaps?
Sure, but a paladin heals for more and can group heal.

Decent debuffs?
No and they don't stack with anything.

What they do have:
-Reliable aggro (paladins get resisted by a lot of high-end stuff)
-Feign death (makes them a great tagger/second puller)
-Sweet flavor

What's worse is that all of their spells generate a static amount of hate that was balanced for the time it was implemented, which means that the higher-end you go, the less aggro advantage you have over other classes, and it's just going to get worse. What makes this a bigger problem for shadowknights than paladins is that a paladin will always be fantastic in a group.

What I Think Should be Done
Shadowknights should get a low-resist, no-fail, castable taunt. It should either be added as an additional or replacement spell with a comparable recast to their current hate spells or it should replace their current AA hate ability.

This would give shadowknights something that nobody else has. It would allow them to generate more hate with a single spell than every other class, with the only comparisons coming from a warrior's AE taunt (usable every 15 minutes) or the low-success taunt ability, and they could do it every 9 or so seconds.

It's Good Because
- It never gets worse no matter how high dps goes or how long the server lasts.
- It gives a minimal, pseudo-AE hate by allowing a shadowknight to far more easily maintain some aggro on several mobs.
- It gives an alert and competent shadowknight the ability to save lives on raids and in groups.
- It would be fun.

It's Not Bad Because
- Your options are 1) getting aggro on the tank OR 2) getting +1 hate, which means shadowknights don't suddenly enable DPS to go nuts without regard for aggro.
- The largest balance concerns would come from encounters requiring very large numbers of adds to be maintained, which this does very little to help.
- It doesn't become the go-to shadowknight spell, it's just an addition and a situational one at that.

 

[Mythryn]

Despite not playing Jose anymore, I think Mang hit the nail on the head, and this is a really good suggestion. Turning Assault of Shadows into a taunt, with the same mob based recast, would help quite a bit.

 

[Spiritplx]

Personally I think shadowknights are pretty awesome as is. Having the ability to split and tank as well as they do, and being able to hold aggro on one mob fairly easily, they have a lot going for them. I think the biggest thing SKs are missing is a defensive stance. The other tanks have a great tanking stance, and the best SKs get is stance 3, which makes absolutely no sense. Giving them either a boost in avoidance or a boost in mitigation in a stance would be great. It could even have a small boost to aggro as well for each hit the SK does.

Maybe Finster was just exceptionally good, or our DPS knew how to jolt, but I can't think of a time that Finster lost aggro on trash or a raid mob other than when we were intentionally fucking around. Sure, they don't get a fool proof system of maintaining aggro, but what they get works pretty well.

I think the fact that they don't mitigate as well as a paladin who can heal themselves and their group members is kind of lame. Giving them a stance that helps them become a better tank is something I would really like to see done.

 

[Manguadi]

Personally I think shadowknights are pretty awesome as is. Having the ability to split and tank as well as they do, and being able to hold aggro on one mob fairly easily, they have a lot going for them. I think the biggest thing SKs are missing is a defensive stance. The other tanks have a great tanking stance, and the best SKs get is stance 3, which makes absolutely no sense. Giving them either a boost in avoidance or a boost in mitigation in a stance would be great. It could even have a small boost to aggro as well for each hit the SK does.

Maybe Finster was just exceptionally good, or our DPS knew how to jolt, but I can't think of a time that Finster lost aggro on trash or a raid mob other than when we were intentionally fucking around. Sure, they don't get a fool proof system of maintaining aggro, but what they get works pretty well.

I think the fact that they don't mitigate as well as a paladin who can heal themselves and their group members is kind of lame. Giving them a stance that helps them become a better tank is something I would really like to see done.

I think increasing their tank ability is another good way to give the class something distinguishing, however they already stand head and shoulders above a paladin on most raid encounters because of the reliability of their hate and because of their role as splitters/taggers, so I thought it made more sense to improve their usefulness in groups and give them something unique and exceptional. There's nothing really exciting about being missed more often.

 

[Spiritplx]

I think being able to solo Lady of the Deep is pretty exciting.

 

[tinkaa]

I'd just like to see a better tanking stance and upgrade to Cloak of Akheva, but both were already suggested here and here.

 

[volvov2]

Man all the SKs post these threads like once a month and nothing ever happens, i've given up on the idea of SKs ever being good at something that another class doesnt do equally or better (in most cases).

I was hoping there would be fruit from that SK pet thread but it seems there arn't any ideas that can be implemented.

Here's another vote for the better SK thing though.

 

[Xach]

Maybe Finster was just exceptionally good, or our DPS knew how to jolt, but I can't think of a time that Finster lost aggro on trash or a raid mob other than when we were intentionally fucking around. Sure, they don't get a fool proof system of maintaining aggro, but what they get works pretty well.

No doubt Finster was a skilled player or he would not have gotten as far as he did in the raid game, but I'm assuming these raid and trash mobs were things that he knew he was going to be tanking. If I start a fight by pulling or tagging, the mob will NEVER get away from me when I am on Xach, because keeping up aggro on a single mob is very easy to do for my class. However, if for instance my guild is doing a raid encounter in which we have the warrior on the main npc, and have me picking up adds, that leaves very little time for me to build aggro during the fight.

So, chances are very slim I'll be second on the list if shit hits the fan and the warrior goes down. I can switch from whatever I'm doing and start building aggro, but there is no way that is going to happen before a few people drop.

Giving Shadowknights a resistable, yet no-fail taunt ability would be an excellent way to give them their unique place in the game. Sure, warriors could do the same with AE taunt, but that is only available every 15 minutes.

Edit: Obviously people might think this ability is overpowered, and will give Shadowknights a way to permanently have aggro on a mob without any effort, but that is easily fixed with a recourse being put on the mob, much like the current Assault of Shadow AA.

 

[Mythryn]

What Xach said sums up the life of an SK perfectly. When it comes to just one mob, agro isn't an issue at all, but beyond that, it's all up to the skill of the SK, and whether or not your DPS knows how to assist.

When it comes to raids with just one target, or one add at a time, SKs shine, but in group situations, or when multiple adds spawn is where we have an issue, an issue none of the other tanks (even some melee classes) have, thanks to Warriors being able to foelock an infinite number of mobs.

A change like this would help with getting SKs where they should be.

 

[Manguadi]

Man all the SKs post these threads like once a month and nothing ever happens, i've given up on the idea of SKs ever being good at something that another class doesnt do equally or better (in most cases).

This was a large part of where my idea came from. Shadowknights are a class that can be beaten at everything they do and they have nothing that really distinguishes them.

Edit: Obviously people might think this ability is overpowered, and will give Shadowknights a way to permanently have aggro on a mob without any effort, but that is easily fixed with a recourse being put on the mob, much like the current Assault of Shadow AA.

I think this is something that taunt fixes by itself. It's not that you can permanently have aggro on a mob without any effort because when whoever you took aggro from does anything they will have aggro back.


Maybe we should start talking about whether it makes more sense as a spell or an AA. As an AA it would tend to be faster/more reliable since they are not affected by spell recast timers or spell slows or range debuffs (at least I think this is true). As a spell, it could be cast and then immediately followed with Assault of Shadows, giving a significant aggro advantage.

I think I prefer it as an AA, partly because it would be unique and unique class abilities should require an investment of time instead of an investment of money, and partly because a spell version would make it very easy to hold the aggro you just won. However if it turns out a shadowknight doesn't generate sufficient aggro without Assault, then a spell is an easy solution.

 

[meyers]

This was a large part of where my idea came from. Shadowknights are a class that can be beaten at everything they do and they have nothing that really distinguishes them.



I think this is something that taunt fixes by itself. It's not that you can permanently have aggro on a mob without any effort because when whoever you took aggro from does anything they will have aggro back.


Maybe we should start talking about whether it makes more sense as a spell or an AA. As an AA it would tend to be faster/more reliable since they are not affected by spell recast timers or spell slows or range debuffs (at least I think this is true). As a spell, it could be cast and then immediately followed with Assault of Shadows, giving a significant aggro advantage.

I think I prefer it as an AA, partly because it would be unique and unique class abilities should require an investment of time instead of an investment of money, and partly because a spell version would make it very easy to hold the aggro you just won. However if it turns out a shadowknight doesn't generate sufficient aggro without Assault, then a spell is an easy solution.

I think the ability would shine as an AA, but not as a replacement for Assault of Shadows. Due to the recast of terrors Wave of Enfeeblement (lol) and rapidly using Assault of Shadows are the only ways for a Shadowknight to reliably gain aggro on a pull of 3+ mobs, and replacing Assault of Shadows would cripple their already awful ability to tank multi-pulls.

I'd be against making a new spell for the ability simply because being required to memorize multiple terrors, voice, shout of agony, and death peace I find myself tight on spell slots as it is. I think the ideal solution for this ability would be to replace the Improved Harm Touch AA. Granted, I don't have the AA, but I cannot think of a single scenario where I would use it over Leech Touch, and both Leech Touch and the normal Harm Touch have a pretty massive resist adjust as it is.

To prevent the new ability from being overpowered yet still situationally useful give it a recourse on the mob as Xach suggested but don't let it stack with the Assault of Shadows recourse.

 

[Kirin Folken]

-shaman have infinite mana

... Glad to know my class is nothing more then a Energizer Bunny

 

[Ponden]

a no fail taunt spell would go a long way in helping.

or just boosting up the terror spells in general to match current Top end DPS....

or that new and improved pet ....

.... or that improved cloak of akheva spell...


..... or anything......


(PS HI JOSE!!!)


more detailing: Paladins = group king, warriors = raid king therefore: Sks = not necessary. (Except for the rare raid fight that is designed to NEED a SK) (most of these "need SK" fights dont even need an SK.)

 

[Dzillon]

I used not to believe it but yes, some SK-made fights can be handled without much trouble with a paladin. It's been said countless times. Backing up Ponden the Wise's summiing up.

 

[Severien]

or just boosting up the terror spells in general to match current Top end DPS....

This alone would go a long way. It's necessary to cast these spells endlessly, if you stop or cast less frequently while fighting alongside some considerable DPS you'll lose aggro often.

Often times if I start trying to pull something off someone when its already down 20% it is nearly impossible to pull the aggro back off. You might be thinking this sort of situation should never occur, but sometimes you get into groups that refuse to assist.

I understand the idea is that it actually takes work to keep aggro but something seems wrong to me when the master of single target aggro has to do just as much work to hold one mob as a paladin does to hold 4 mobs. They feel like they're just a bit lacking, especially when I find it just as easy, and perhaps easier, to hold aggro with a warrior.

Shadowknights bring a lot of neat things to the table and are by far my favorite tank class to play on SoD, but they could use a little boost, even if its just a little bit more single target aggro.

I remember my first time loading up an SK bot to go do a group, using voice, pulling a mob with terror, using AA hate, smashing taunt, and getting aggro pulled off of me by a beastlord because even though I was using the terrors, I wasn't chaining them. I wasn't expecting to need to.

Its like Manguadi said:

Shadowknights are a class that can be beaten at everything they do and they have nothing that really distinguishes them.

Because having boxed near-top-end tanks of every class frequently, I don't believe SKs are the masters of single target aggro. Can I keep it if I want to? Of course I can. I'd be totally shit at playing an SK if I couldn't. But I don't feel the class can do it much better than the others can, and thats wrong.

They do bring neat things along. Snapping a mob off of the cleric from the other side of the room fills an ex-warrior-main with glee, and FD pulling in a group with no monk is fantastic. They really need something though, to either buff their abilities in their intended role of single-target masters, or to give them something else that is uniquely useful to a group.

I love Manguadi's original idea, I think it would be just what Shadowknights need.

 

[stope21]

Each class should do something exceptionally well. It's just more fun if you can do something no one else can; something really cool that distinguishes you from all the other overlapping classes in sod.

-druids have great versatility between powerful healing and decent dps

By this definition, sk's also have great versatility. They can tank and FD. FD is huge.

Sk's currently do get something no other class has. They have huge, AND unresistable spell agro. Although this is nice, its not that big a deal because, warriors generally dont have issues holding agro on 99.99% of fights.

With that being said, I feel sks can do something no other classes can. BUT i still feel the class is lackluster. The ability to unresistable agro really is not a big deal except on a few fights.


I also feel a boost to SK's tanking stance would make them more of a "special" class. Warriors get the boost in mitigation. Although pallies can have issues holding agro on some mobs, they get the boost of LoH, Hands of Piety, and larger self heals to help them stay alive when tanking.

 

[Manguadi]

By this definition, sk's also have great versatility. They can tank and FD. FD is huge.

Versatility is neither exceptional nor unique, neither is tanking and FD.

My intention is to make SKs more entertaining and unique, not better tanks. If I wanted that, I would have provided lengthy parses.

 

[Xach]

Cvetkaa will appreciate this when/if its implemented.