Rogues

a good RNg run will give 900-1000dps for me but my average is 550-700
Solo I average 300-400 dps / non-burn 500-700 / burn 700 - 1000, dps is a really bad measure though because there are so many variables. I usually compare total damage between toons to get a sense of where I'm at versus other players. I'll have to check logs of fights I've been in with Yusuke, but it sounds like you're doing less damage than I'd expect. Bane maybe?

why you're so against having a few flavourful changes made to an otherwise bland class
I'm not against changes. I just think rat pet is a poor idea.

That is probably still the case unless everyone figured out the mystery tier recipes that may or may not have existed.
The poisons they produce have unimplemented effects. There are recipes in game for 4 strained poisons and 1 planar poison though.
 
Because near every other class has a pet. I don't think a tamed rat or some shit really fits into any rogue lore. As for it being flavorful again most classes have a pet. Also you need a sweet ass fire sword that comes out of your crotch protector. Also because rats got a rogue banned in the past so its just disrespectful to some people : (.
 
the bad:
-rogue pets

This could be a good idea as an inventory clicky type thing. You click, the rat pet acts like a monster summoning and debuffs the mob until it dies or the mob dies then despawns ("Gonna let whiskers out for a bit!"). First accessible could be a starfall/thurg quest. then a more involved low tier quest. then ikisith stuff because why not.

I think the trap system needs to get some serious love, and poison making needs to get an overhaul or at least have the recipes and effects fleshed out a tad more. I think this could be a good opportunity for tinkering to make a comeback too. Could have some synergy between that and poisons and blacksmithing to come up with clicky gear and ammo procs and all that.
 
I still don't see the significance of the rat that makes it any better than a decent poison effect, they're both just dots in the end. I guess there is some obsession to owning a pet/beast envy.
 
The reason i say rogues are masters of melee is because its all we do. It's our entire role to the game. As for haenir with your parses, When i was around your tier casters had channeling and stuff so i can't speak to much to where rogues are sub T13 but at T13 Rangers almost always beat everyone else or are atleast in the top 3 they have the best of both worlds, (Basically meleeing while at range).

Choosing a rogue you give up any interactiveness for what should be a pure DPS class, The way i see it a rogue of equal tier and equal skill should almost always beat any other dps class but this is not the case, if this isn't going to be the case can we have some real utility? I don't care how it gets there honestly a pet is fine with me that you quest for and have a clickie for, or making some useful traps and implementing them into like a stance system type of deal that offers some real utility.

-Even some simple stuff like reducing the reuse on escape to like 15min so it can be reliably used for raid/6man/xp recovery, whats this seriously going to break?
-Flesh out the existing poison's in there current state to just include a few neat and useful stuff, (Dispel poison, Reverse DS poison, a better molten lead, ect ect)


If we did anything more than melee mobs to the back and try and generate big numbers id consider calling rogues something other than masters of melee but so long as its the only thing we have going for us thats gunna be the case in my eyes.
 
Poison Making
Any thought to opening up weapon augs and having poison making able to construct augs to fit in those slots?

Sense/Disarm Traps
Possibly just making sense traps a bit easier to raise would make this much less of a hassle.

Utility
Pulling - Consider reduction of escape cooldown. Or some utility skill that lets a rogue knock out or distract a mob while someone else pulls. Ideally w/o the rogue gaining aggro.

Healing - Some kind of occasional self heal wouldn't hurt. Like a skill to make the next backstab heal yourself for a percentage of it's damage.

DPS
Mobility - Time on target greatly changes rogue DPS. An ability to either jump behind a NPC or even just jump forward/backwards a small set amount would be a great boon. Another option would be a short duration move speed bump.

AE Damage - Currently no melee dps really has much in the way of area effect damage. Could rogues get something to fit there?
 
Last edited:
I know this is not going to be a popular opinion, but I think that rogues are ok, I think everyone wants them in both raids and groups, moving mobs kills every melees dps not just rogues.
I think it is ok for some classes to be good on some fights and worse on others. I think rogues have a very strong well defined role already so any changes should be very minor and mostly flavor based. Everyone loves rogues, they stack better than most classes in both raids and groups. every class has fights that they suck at, there are fights where mages can't use pets, there are fights with very resistant mobs that reflect.

I think that rogues could have some cool little things but maybe just little utility things through traps/poison.
 
This is a lot easier than you think.

1. If you say so then I believe you. Amaze us by making Shadowstep a reality.

2. Maybe something in the utility department that revolves around rogues ability to scout. Sap? Also reduced escape CD.
[possibly incorporate 1 & 2 and the existing Rogue abilities into the /s system for player ease and balancing]

3. Poison overhaul/completion utilizing the ammo slot. Also, something with set traps but I don't know enough about traps to comment specifically on that.

Nothing huge here. Mitigating a huge and common issue for Rogues while giving a cool new flavorful ability, giving a bit more scout utility / pull assist ability, and cleaning up the existing class trade skills. Rogues are not in the shitstorm of suck that other classes have been in the past (I don't think any class is anymore), but could use a solid once over on the dev table to grind some rough spots, fill in a gap or two, and tweak this-or-that (like about half the classes could).
 
I know this is not going to be a popular opinion, but I think that rogues are ok, I think everyone wants them in both raids and groups, moving mobs kills every melees dps not just rogues.
I think it is ok for some classes to be good on some fights and worse on others. I think rogues have a very strong well defined role already so any changes should be very minor and mostly flavor based. Everyone loves rogues, they stack better than most classes in both raids and groups. every class has fights that they suck at, there are fights where mages can't use pets, there are fights with very resistant mobs that reflect.

I think that rogues could have some cool little things but maybe just little utility things through traps/poison.

I think before some changes rogues were in a pretty good place. With the recent upgrades to monks and beastlords they are no longer where they should be. I think rogues should be the top melee dps as that is the only thing they bring to the table, and have to be in melee range. Unlike ranges that when mobs move and are allowed to miss mechanics such as WW / Ramp / Enrage / Riposte. Like Draeos stated earlier they should be the highest dps of all melees and i would say consistently higher than wizards, but lack in burst. They like wizards should be 15-20% higher than any other melee. I think a big way to improve that would be to remove some of the RNG from the dps aspect. I would increase accuracy of both melee and backstab.
 
Rogues are fine for a majority of the game and then just get outscaled at the very endgame simply because of how the mob loot tables are and because of how caster DPS scales
 
In the T9-11 area, casters just scale much harder than rogues. While casters are getting their 226k charm (6% spell crit), runic/archaic spells to do huge boosts to dps, affliction enhancement/dmg increment (3% per focus up), rogues get... a better weapon and maybe a double attack mod or 2? Maybe if they're lucky coming close to getting +25 piercing skill? Maybe if they're really good/lucky they have a complete bane collection?

Seems that rogue could use some kind of more linear scaling to compete (at least up to T11). I hate to stay similar to the way monks scale off stats, but something to compete with casters in this tier.

To me, doing T10-11 content, an on-tier rogue is just a monk that does less dps, can't FD, has a very limitedly useful scouting abilities and can occasionally do nifty 6-man recovery tricks.
 
I just wanted to point out that the rat pet thing was only a small part of what I suggested, and I'm a helluva lot more invested in poisons being more useful (the crits), and / or traps being better implemented.

+1 to everything Pec just said above. As far as damage output is concerned, everyone else has said it already anyways. I'm not and never have been super raidy so I'm not decked out in a myriad of bane items... Aside from the already mentioned lopsided scaling at higher tiers, casters only have to worry about a focus effects, elemental + damage, etc etc, which usually covers a whole zone or encounter. Not mob-by-mob gear swaps. or much in the way of sacrifice to max out bane type. Plus crits on everything. Wizards get ultimates all over the place, on Kiang with Insidious 2, I can go a full day without seeing one. Probably because the mobs can't be critted on during 30-50% of that day depending on where I am. I'm mostly talking about group situations too, where I can think of many classes who are better at aoe - which is fine - but the aoe damage they do isn't far off the total single target damage I get to do on mobs. Also, if they are a class that isn't in the AoE game, they're bringing some extra utility to the group that rogues just can't make up for.

It does feel like nitpicking, mobs die and nobody denies rogues places in groups, but basically at the end of the day SoD wouldn't be much different if you gave bards 250 lockpick and got rid of rogues. That's just something I'd like to see changed, if possible. I'll gladly accept my wrongness if someone can point out a use that rogues fulfil that could not feasibly be covered by another class, something more than just niche gimmick stuff. I'm not claiming to have all the knowledge or expertise by any means but I have been here awhile so all I can give you is my experience: I'd rather be playing other people's characters right now than Kiang unless I'm trying to get Vah stuff. The most fun I have on my rogue is getting new illusion items. If me and my friends need dps I'll just pick the wizard who can port or the bard who can also offtank/ do everything.
 
Just for fun:

Black%20Rat%201_zpsrlnjetz0.jpg


And bonus points if the rat could be coded to swap to this transparent texture variant every time the Rogue successfully enters Sneak/Hide:

Black%20Rat%202_zpsmb9amfhc.jpg
 
Utility
Pulling - Consider reduction of escape cooldown. Or some utility skill that lets a rogue knock out or distract a mob while someone else pulls. Ideally w/o the rogue gaining aggro.
This is a VERY cool idea. Something like an ability that requires hide/sneak and to be behind the mob, and works like pacify for 30 seconds but sets their aggro and social radius to 1 or something (insert appropriate figure here) so that mobs can be solo pulled. 1 tick cooldown so it can be performed on multiple mobs. You could even give it a small failure rate or something, this is where reduced escape timer would come in.

This would also help rogues out with soloing on their way up quite a lot, right?
 
Pretty sure without some kind of system like warriors/monk have Rogues are always going to feel a bit... one buttoned.

In terms of dps, we're in a pretty good place as far as I can tell - there are definite limitations on our ability to do damage, but for the most part those are shared by other melee dependent dps'ers. The problem is that those other classes have better developed and defined utility.

Some more ideas, some bad, some good:

Rogue Disguise Ability -- would be a quested clicky item which (1) shapeshifted Rogue into current target; (2) modified faction
Cavity Search -- pick pocket on an npc corpse would yield a chance of additional cash
Bleeding Wounds -- hits with a piercing weapons against the living have a chance to cause bleeding wounds, weakening the target
Glyph of Offense -- Similar to the caster resist adjust glyphs, but increases melee accuracy (not-Rogue specific)
Nightblade's Grace -- Expand the list of things this spell dodge works on (currently seems to be only things that cost a mob mana?)
Innate Trapfinding -- Anytime a Rogue is sneaking, they automatically are making sense trap checks, maybe as part of the Ambuscade Expertise tomeline
Trap Dodge -- give Rogue a chance to "dodge" trap triggering, maybe as part of the Ambuscade Expertise tomeline
Trap Pets -- Line of traps that spawn swarm pets -- e.g., clockwork rats
Distraction -- Successful "You see an opening" - "Got em!" causes the mobs next melee swing to miss
Fast Stealth -- Rogue moves at full speed while sneaking - something quested, i.e., advanced Rogue skills training
Selfless Evasion -- similar to Warrior /shield, Rogue /evade targeting another player would shift a % of Rogue spell avoidance abilities to the other player
Skeleton Key -- quested/crafted Rogue lockpick that can be used to open a wider range of locks (e.g., chests/doors that usually require a specific key) - poofs on use
Reverse Pick Pocket -- Pick pocket with an item on the cursor and npc targeted gives that item to the npc (e.g., armor with negative stats, loading up mobs in a newb zone with surprise phats, etc.)
Knives Knives Everywhere -- AoE throwing
Focused Evasion -- Take reduced damage while hidden -- i.e., a properly timed /autoattack off and /hide could save you from an aoe/db/etc.
Trap Scaling -- currently only the damage effects of traps scale, would be nice if all effects scaled
High End Stolen Goods -- Rogue fence quest for items pick pocketed from high-end mobs (items would be on separate pick pocket loot table)
Separate Pick Pocket Loot -- Instead of pick pocket coming from a mobs normal loot, it would be a separate thing - e.g., a mob with 10p of normal loot would also have 3p of extra loot a Rogue could find
Door Locking -- Rogue can lock doors that would otherwise open normally (most important for the Athica bank)
Targetable Poison -- click on poison while targeting a group member = group member gains poison proc
Contact Poison -- powdered poisons which are clicky items rather than procs
Locked Boxes -- Dropped loot that requires lockpick skill to open, can be bashed/blasted with spells but results in inferior reward
 
Back
Top Bottom