rogues, my 2cp

[Salarus]

Rogues...you would think naturally they would be the best non caster dps in the game....seeing as they can't really solo or duo effectivly. Getting out damaged by rangers really bothers me as a rogue, seeing as they can not only solo/duo but using their bow avoid WW and rampage, at which point rogues become useless. Also, /s 11 (dodge spell stance) hardly works on any raids, even on *trash* mobs in the zone (PoA for example). Now, seeing how hard it is to level a rogue, seeing how fast they go down, seeing that their only real useful stance where they could shine by dodging AE spells hardly works anywhere, I think its time for an upgrade. Maybe even just reducing the amount of mobs whose spells get through /s 11, maybe a new stance that helps them dodge WW or rampage attacks....but whatever it is, please, give rogues something

 

[Finny]

Oh but don't worry, rangers spend so much money on arrows

It's been brought up several times and I'm suprised nothing has been changed yet. I've always syduck:'d rogues function on this server. Not only do rogues get out dps'd by rangers constantly with bows, but rangers are great raid utility via cotp, rangers are ranged attack and are thus able to avoid most AOE's, and I don't think I've ever seen a ranger pull agro off a main tank on a named with bowing AND they also have the option to jolt (-agro) and have agro spells such as call of the mound (+ agro). Icing on the cake is they are able to tank suprisingly well with their /s 4... granted their DPS gets cut in half if not more, but what tank does dps anyways?

What do you get with a rogue on a raid? Me yelling at the druid or shaman to heal the rogue being eaten alive by aoe's (ask seferon or lytec ) so they can continue to do crappy (relative to a ranger and wizard) dps. For the rogue to even come close on many fights, they are required to have chain giantkin. Why even run a rogue on a raid if you have rangers in supply?

Maybe it's just me, but isn't the obvious solution is up rogue dps by upping backstab damage?

BTW, If you want parses, PM me. I have about 40 megs I can send you with a 16 and 17 dmg piercer, namely stone etched dirk, twilight rapier, and even obsidian shanker getting consistently out dps'd by bloodseeker but mostly woe.

 

[ryutakin]

Rogues don't need to outdps rangers they are prefectly fine where they are but maybe make them elusive to rampage or certain things as such so its more fair.

 

[Wiz]

The reason nothing gets done is because none of the people I have asked to provide a consistent set of parses have bothered to finish their task.

 

[Brimztone]

My log currently has about 425 fights both in EXP groups and not. ~90 of them without a 17 damage piercer(Stone Etched Dirk vs. Obsidian Shanker after those 90).

Finster has even more than that. Some of mine have all hits and spells on, showing people like Brandar and Drello leaving Me in the dust.

If you would like me send them, or post them, just tell me how/where.

 

[khador]

Rogues don't need to outdps rangers they are prefectly fine where they are but maybe make them elusive to rampage or certain things as such so its more fair.

lmfao dude.. so far off.. rogs are suppose to have MORE dps.. not equal or less.. i would definately rather see rogs dps go up vs rangers down.. but one thing id also love to see is rampage being tweaked.. i really do feel 2 is 1 more than it should be=/ only having to have 1 ramp tank on a fight would make it so we could be included in on those fights..

if more parses are need i can try to get some myself. i use a rotted dragon tooth atm on my rog.

 

[Garluk]

IMO, a comparably equipped rogue should do 10-20% more DPS than a ranger using 8 dmg arrows and a bow that is appropriate for his level of advancement. That is currently not the case.

Also, you mentioned giantkin. Because the primary source of rogue dps, namely backstab, is on a 6 sec minimum timer they receive a much smaller dps boost from giantkin's overhaste relative to other melees such as monks or rangers. The real advantage to casting giantkin on a rogue is that they would have to evade less often due to the -40% aggression modifier of the spell.

Don't you :rollseyes: at me, Finster Spending 100-200 pp on arrows for every raid is nothing to sneeze at. Charms don't grow on trees, they grow on vendors. And vendors don't care how much I spend on arrows, they only care about how much pp I bring to the trade window.

The one huge drawback that we both have is that we are "twitch" classes, with rangers being even more so. Twitch class means that to maximize your performance you must be doing something constantly. In the case of rogues, it is hitting bs every 6 seconds and tossing in the occasional evade. For rangers, it means hitting the ranged attack button every 2-3 seconds. Wizards can setup a macro that does nuke, concuss, nuke, nuke, concuss and only have to tab back every 15-20 secs or so.

And not to come off as bragging, but comparing yourself to Brandar is not fair to the ranger class. He is at max worn attack, max crit mods, +25 archery and has str/dex stats that few can match.

 

[Brimztone]

And not to come off as bragging, but comparing yourself to Brandar is not fair to the ranger class. He is at max worn attack, max crit mods, +25 archery and has str/dex stats that few can match.

That's why I threw Drello in there. You both do ridiculous DPS.

 

[Waldoff]

The Dagger changes in the Item overhaul are designed to give rogues a bit more DPS.


Basically if you want a more substantial change there are going to need to be some sort of parses showing the DPS of tier X rogues and tier X rangers.

 

[Garluk]

and I don't think I've ever seen a ranger pull agro off a main tank on a named with bowing

This happened on several occasions when I first joined Steel. Thank God we finally got Sald some decent aggro weapons. But, to be fair, I was 1-1.5 tiers ahead of him in gear. I could probably still do it if I used Quiver of the Sun.

 

[Finny]

That's why I threw Drello in there. You both do ridiculous DPS.

Yep. Most of my parsing was done in comparison to Drello since they did a lot of xping together (probably at least 125 AA's) and are quite similarly geared. About the only time I was able to parse higher than Drello on a XP or raid trash mob is landing a few consecutive 4k+ backstabs or if he was AFK eating a danish.

The reason nothing gets done is because none of the people I have asked to provide a consistent set of parses have bothered to finish their task.

Could you be more specific on what you are looking for and what format? Do you want final numbers for boss XXXX or do you want a whole log file or? Brimz you may want to take him up on this offer since I'm not home right now.

 

[Mythryn]

Rogues don't need to outdps rangers they are prefectly fine where they are but maybe make them elusive to rampage or certain things as such so its more fair.

What? Rogues should out dps rangers, monks, bards, shadowknights blah blah blah blah etc etc on all fights that aren't whirlwinds, where rangers should shine. Rogues are supposed to be the #2 dps on the server, and they aren't. They are out dpsed by monks, rangers, mages, necros. Currently Rogue dps is pretty abysmal compared to other melee classes, and most caster classes dominate melee classes on most fights (monks can reach caster dps on some fights with beatstick and giantkin). I really don't see why monks and rangers get to out dps, out tank, and out survive rogues.

As for the DPS logs, could it be at all possible a sort of test mob could be spawned in say, the Arena, with the same hp/ac/defense etc as a raid mob (on average) so people can have an easier time getting accurate DPS numbers?

 

[Cinn]

Honestly a slight bump in rogue DPS is in order but from the rogues I've talked to (not many) I feel that some other sort of utility is in order to fix an obviously broken class. A rogue will never be a melee-wizard. And really, they dont even have to out DPS rangers.You could bump their DPS slightly, leaving them lower/equal to rangers and vulnerable to AE's, while instead giving them class specific tasks that only a rogue would be able to pull off.

These tasks would lower the diffuclty of an encounter, or reduce the time needed to clear through mindless trash. These things could be as simple as being able to break into a wizard guild at night and pickpocket teleport: "plane" spells off the guild leader, designing seperate loot-tables on mobs that can only be accessed with pickpocket and putting keys and other USEFUL items in their hidden stash.

The picklock breaking and enterting system that was implimented was a great start, and a move in the right direction for rogues. It's a shame it wasnt expanded upon, because in it's current state it is rarely if ever even used by the playerbase.

Poisons are another option, but those lean more twords increasing a rogues DPS and in all honesty I dont think you will ever come to the ground most of you are wishing for in rogue damage output. Possibly making posions minor resistance and stat debuffs, or fire/cold focii.

I dont know, this is a quick post before a landslide of replies. If people are interested in the idea I'd be tempted to start a seperate thread as to not derail this DPS-centric one.

 

[Brimztone]

Could you be more specific on what you are looking for and what format? Do you want final numbers for boss XXXX or do you want a whole log file or? Brimz you may want to take him up on this offer since I'm not home right now.

Yeah, I just need to know what he wants for parses.

 

[Llanoldar Lluindar]

but rangers are great raid utility via cotp

Yes, one spell that at least 2/3 of the raid clicks off is totally awesome utility.

Since snare is pretty much useless and we don't have a spell in the SSS/SV line, we are not awesome utility, and we never have been. When I cast pred, 1 rogue, 1 bst, 1 monk, and myself keep it up. Everyone else drops it. This is not great utility. SKs are the only spellcasting class with less utility than rangers. Maybe Nec, but they do get some nice group taps.

I'm staying out of the rest of this argument, but I won't let anyone argue that Rangers are GREAT raid utility.

 

[Tryfaen]

for dps parsing, would the format in this thread be acceptable?
http://www.shardsofdalaya.com/forum/index.php?topic=11960

As for the DPS logs, could it be at all possible a sort of test mob could be spawned in say, the Arena, with the same hp/ac/defense etc as a raid mob (on average) so people can have an easier time getting accurate DPS numbers?

If any GM in charge of testing stuff wanted to set up something like this I would gladly volunteer my time poking on a dummy mob and provide full and accurate parses.

 

[Brimztone]

If any GM in charge of testing stuff wanted to set up something like this I would gladly volunteer my time poking on a dummy mob and provide full and accurate parses.

I would as well.

 

[Ponden]

Also, you mentioned giantkin. Because the primary source of rogue dps, namely backstab, is on a 6 sec minimum timer they receive a much smaller dps boost from giantkin's overhaste relative to other melees such as monks or rangers.

This seems really borked. I have not checked to see if backstab was only changed by haste to 6 secs but if so then.... that really needs to be fixed if its possible.

 

[Garluk]

This seems really borked. I have not checked to see if backstab was only changed by haste to 6 secs but if so then.... that really needs to be fixed if its possible.

Pretty sure it is built into the client, but I may be mistaken.

 

[Wiz]

If you want to post / send parse data, just make a post here or send it to [email protected], make sure to ignore details on your gear at the time and comparative parses to similarily geared players of other classes if you can.

Don't just send me the parse for one fight, though, that's useless.