Rogue Backstab Damage and Overall DPS

Lufia

Dalayan Beginner
I posted this in Balance and it went poof *shakes fist*

Currently, Rogue DPS is a joke. As I understand it, the DPS chain should go Wizards->Rogues->Rangers, with solid increments in between the two. I've spoken with rogues from low end raid guilds, mid tiers, and it seems that everyone was effected greatly over the past week or so. Before the changes, sub-100 aa rogues without 17 damage piercers were literally at the bottom of the charts as far as DPS goes. Once a 17 dmg piercer was acquired and all of the backstab aa's are acquired along with crit, we should easily fit into the raid behind Wizards.

As of a week or two ago, I received enough upgrades and AA's that my DPS raised to between 300-350, which is fairly close to our relic'd wizards who do 450-550 per mob, depending on resists. In my opinion, this is directly in line with the proposed 'dps heirarchy,' which places rogues right behind Wizards. Wizards will gain their Archaic spell and rogues will pick up Demonshear, which should keep things proper. Unfortunately, we've been reduced to a shell of our former class. I currently parse between 180-220 DPS and even with enchanter curses, I rarely break 250dps. Given the fact that I'm pulling 1660 atk, 10% crit, a 17dmg mainhand, 16/20 offhand w/ dps proc, +4 magic dmg on ranged, and a 66k charm, I feel broken. I routinely backstab for sub-200 on most mobs, which is honestly just an insult.

Rangers are pulling down 350+ dps with their bows while outranging AE's and we're stuck going toe to toe with pathetic excuses for backstabs being thrown out routinely. For example, I backstab for over 2000 about once per night.

Had hard numbers posted in my Balancing thread which got deleted, roughly I was hitting 140-160dps with a 16dmg piercer, 7% crit, then raised to 17dmg, 10% crit, etc and was hitting 300-350. Now I have trouble breaking 200. The only rogue that I've heard people complain about DPS-wise is Ponden, and it almost seems like the entire rogue class was rebalanced based on his DPS.
 
Updating this with a few numbers from the Summoner clear/fight. Twilight Rapier/Arachnid Leg, Nemesis Charm, etc.

Code:
Duration	MOB		      Dmg Given	DPS	
0:01:09	An ysthar blackwatcher		14,230	  209.26	
0:05:52	Orishal`malath the arbiter	 62,879	   195.88	
0:01:14	An ysthar chaos mage		13,817	  209.35	
0:01:57	An ysthar black knight		 18,604   160.38	
0:01:38	An ysthar black knight		 16,924   183.96	
0:01:25	An ysthar ghoul	D-Blue	     16,050	   222.92	
0:00:50	An ysthar ghoul		      5,746	179.56	
0:00:33	An ysthar ghoul		      5,969	192.55	
0:01:18	Yldrishk the unliving 		  12,850	178.47	
0:00:22	An ysthar ghoul		      7,576	445.65	
0:00:47	An ysthar ghoul		      7,922	193.22	
0:00:32	An ysthar ghoul		      5,078	169.27	
0:04:13	Aszhii, summoner of the dead 50,468	 203.50

Should probably clarify that the 445 was when i used my crit stance.
 
Currently, Rogue DPS is a joke. As I understand it, the DPS chain should go Wizards->Rogues->Rangers, with solid increments in between the two.

leaving out casters, shouldnt rangers and rogues be very close in damage as far as bow/backstab seems the new 2.0 system is very based around raiding? with this statement you are suggesting that the ranger be less damage and with the solid increment being the same differance between the wiz and rog that would put ranger significantly worse at dealing damage than the rogue, making them them when it all boils down pretty useless in a raid.
I just think that this dps subject is outdated with the new system. your basing your idea on the way the old system was. Im not disagreeing that rogues are not doing enough damage, I am just saying I disagree with this statement and that it needs to be considered if any rogue changes are made

yale
 
The last parses I checked, the top geared rogues were still #2 on our raids with an average of about 290-310, with mages and rangers and Zhak trading off at a close #3 (~270). This is based solely off of memory mind you, so the numbers could be off a bit, but it really seems acurate.



Lufia said:
The only rogue that I've heard people complain about DPS-wise is Ponden, and it almost seems like the entire rogue class was rebalanced based on his DPS.

The backstab/attack changes increased rogue DPS by over 200. Ponden was just an example (doing 660ish to Thaz earth wing trash), he wasn't the only rogue doing insane DPS.
 
Where all(or nearly all) backstab mods changed to just +X instead of +X% and main quest aug changed from +BS% to just +Piercing?



edit: or did I just imagine changes here?
 
Lufia said:
Updating this with a few numbers from the Summoner clear/fight. Twilight Rapier/Arachnid Leg, Nemesis Charm, etc.

Code:
Duration	MOB		      Dmg Given	DPS	
0:01:09	An ysthar blackwatcher		14,230	  209.26	
0:05:52	Orishal`malath the arbiter	 62,879	   195.88	
0:01:14	An ysthar chaos mage		13,817	  209.35	
0:01:57	An ysthar black knight		 18,604   160.38	
0:01:38	An ysthar black knight		 16,924   183.96	
0:01:25	An ysthar ghoul	D-Blue	     16,050	   222.92	
0:00:50	An ysthar ghoul		      5,746	179.56	
0:00:33	An ysthar ghoul		      5,969	192.55	
0:01:18	Yldrishk the unliving 		  12,850	178.47	
0:00:22	An ysthar ghoul		      7,576	445.65	
0:00:47	An ysthar ghoul		      7,922	193.22	
0:00:32	An ysthar ghoul		      5,078	169.27	
0:04:13	Aszhii, summoner of the dead 50,468	 203.50

Should probably clarify that the 445 was when i used my crit stance.

You're posting DPS parses on two big (l65) named, and undead mobs (no crits, hi uber dps reduction).

Log dps for a week on every mob you kill and report back.
To be honest, 200dps with a twighlight rapier and an arachnid leg seems fine. You should be no where near relic wizard dps.

Tbh, i'd love to see a parse comparisson (2-3 hr total dmg during exp grind, and a few big raid fights) of say Ponden/Terate and see how it lines up.
Get on that Jose ^_^
 
Tryfaen said:
Where all(or nearly all) backstab mods changed to just +X instead of +X% and main quest aug changed from +BS% to just +Piercing?



edit: or did I just imagine changes here?

What? They've been a flat skill increase all along.
 
Alton said:
You're posting DPS parses on two big (l65) named, and undead mobs (no crits, hi uber dps reduction).

Log dps for a week on every mob you kill and report back.
To be honest, 200dps with a twighlight rapier and an arachnid leg seems fine. You should be no where near relic wizard dps.

I had a paladin in my group the entire time, and as far as I know, those mobs are not undead as I routinely crit on them without a Paladin present. I'm not sure what to say about the relic wizard comment, my gear is on par if not better than every wizard in my guild so I would expect to be within 50 of their DPS. As it stands, I feel like there's no real reason to bring a Rogue in EXP groups because even Mages/Bards out-DPS me w/ the exception of a few burst fights here and there. This is the clear to Lurking Terror and a few extra fights towards crystal oracle. Will post raid data later tonight.

Code:
Duration	MOB		Dmg Given	DPS	
0:00:58	An orc patroller	7,466	128.72	
0:00:20	An orc patroller	2,318	193.17	
0:00:20	An orc patroller	3,209	200.56	
0:00:26	An orc patroller	5,884	245.17	
0:03:08	An orc swordsman	35,683	191.84	
0:00:26	An orc swordsman	4,651	186.04	
0:00:41	An orc pikeman		7,588	216.80	
0:00:33	An orc pikeman		9,169	295.77	
0:00:39	A terror spawn		7,731	322.13	
0:00:41	A terror spawn		6,954	217.31	
0:00:41	A terror spawn		9,044	347.85	
0:00:32	A terror spawn		6,543	204.47	
0:00:32	A terror spawn		8,685	321.67	
0:00:43	A terror spawn		10,082	245.90	
0:00:38	A terror spawn		7,157	188.34	
0:00:36	A terror spawn		8,023	243.12	
0:00:37	The lurking terror	12,882	368.06	
0:00:39	A terror spawn		5,867	150.44	
0:00:32	A terror spawn		7,744	242.00	
0:00:53	An orc dweller		12,415	275.89	
0:00:42	An orc dweller		6,717	186.58	
0:00:48	An orc dweller		10,424	226.61	
0:01:18	An orc dweller		10,287	180.47	
0:01:24	An orc dweller		16,118	233.59	
0:00:37	An orc footman		6,442	214.73	
0:02:40	A crystal seer		28,283	182.47

It was interesting to note that yesterday morning, I raided with Exodus and parsed Majk for a bit, glancing at his DPS here and there, and he has roughly the same gear as me but with a 15/22 piercer instead of my Twilight rapier. He also had savagery whereas I did not. He was routinely parsing between 100-120 DPS, the same as a Shadow Knight on the raid.
 
Lufia, what parser are you using?

I downloaded Majk's log of last few days from his comp and here are screenshots of parsing with EQcompanion (I can't export because my comp would just freeze). Mostly PoA and PoT.
1 2 3

I'm not saying anything, but well, few more logs never hurt. I'd post logs from Tinkaa and her pet, but I'm not happy with the results I'm getting since the (partial) resist changes (maybe I'm just paranoid, but mobs in general resist her more now).
 
Tryfaen said:
ok, I must have been confusing them with ranger archery items.

Yes they show up as %, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere it was just shown wrong and works as skill increase.
 
tinkaa said:
Lufia, what parser are you using?

I downloaded Majk's log of last few days from his comp and here are screenshots...

Tink, I'm using EQCompanion. As you can see, there are many occasions where Majk's DPS falls below 130, which is what I was referring to. I appreciate the extra log numbers and it just goes to show that I'm very disappointed in our class' DPS output atm.
 
Xeldan said:
What? They've been a flat skill increase all along.

roguepercentqr1.png


It shows % increase on fomelo, but just a flat +backstab mod in game iirc, its awfully confusing because 15% and +15 are 2 entirely different numbers.
 
IIRC Wiz had said that all items that show % do mean just a flat addition. So, +25% is just +25 on anything. Of course, I could be wrong. I do have a gnome for an avatar, afterall.
 
volvov2 said:
roguepercentqr1.png


It shows % increase on fomelo, but just a flat  +backstab mod in game iirc, its awfully confusing because 15% and +15 are 2 entirely different numbers.

That's a Fomelo problem that needs to be fixed then. It's a flat increase.
 
More Rogue data from raids. Prison clear including bugged out Mani's (no I'm not bitter, really!) and a few wipes to Mirrors because Zhak was watching :tinfoil:

Code:
Duration	MOB	Dmg Given	DPS	
0:01:29	Taeshlin		11,433	136.11	
0:01:43	A granite sentinel		16,201	174.20	
0:01:27	A basalt sentinel		13,754	185.86	
0:01:37	A chipped blackrock statue 9,730	105.76	
0:01:00	A basalt sentinel		7,277	139.94	
0:01:41	A granite sentinel		13,563	165.40	
0:01:21	A vandathian chosen		14,881	248.02	
0:01:30	A granite sentinel		13,692	175.54	
0:01:36	A granite sentinel		16,416	180.40	
0:01:09	A basalt sentinel		9,051	139.25	
0:01:12	A vandathian chosen		14,681	253.12	
0:01:17	A vandathian chosen		17,497	273.39	
0:01:26	A phasestone keeper		12,067	141.96	
0:00:30	A phasestone keeper		1,842	65.79	
0:00:40	An obsidian juggernaut		8,322	244.76	
0:01:13	A basalt sentinel     14,131	261.69	
0:02:12	Truthseeker es`tarel		27,161	228.24	
0:01:03	A vandathian chosen		18,403	353.90	
0:01:07	A vandathian chosen		15,317	239.33	
0:02:03	Master of the gates		34,343	312.21	
0:00:56	Taeshlin		     11,851	223.60	
0:01:11	A phase golem		     14,469	215.96	
0:01:07	A phase golem		     11,358	183.19	
0:01:04	Manifestation of stone     5,835	171.62	
0:01:12	A phase golem		     11,679	201.36	
0:01:27	A phase golem		     6,436	169.37	
0:01:13	A phase golem		     9,947	165.78	
0:01:17	A phase golem		     10,156	207.27	
0:03:58	Mirror golem		      45,943	214.69	
0:04:51	Mirror golem		      55,369	213.78	
0:04:42	Mirror golem		      50,492	201.16	
0:01:55	A sunderdrake	         23,578	226.71	
0:01:23	A sunderdrake		     21,621	270.26

Note that the Mirror fights all included an Enchanter curse and my Criti disc, as did the MotG fight.
 
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