Recovery vs Stamina regen, part II

Yona

Yona

Dalayan Beginner
This topic has already been discussed a bit in this thread.
Seeing the number of replies and no GM support, I wonder if I'm the only one thinking Recovery is useless for most classes ? :what:

I can see why a necro or maybe a shaman would need a good amount of recovery points because of their tendency to eat themself. But where's the usefulness of recovery for other classes ? It's mainly an added stat so items look cooler.

As previously said in the other thread, I'd like to see a small Sta regen along with recovery points. I can't suggest any number because i have no idea how big is the stamina pool for a lvl 65.
I bet it's possible to make it balanced so sta regen doesn't trivialise any style, and Recovery items would then get some real love. Sta regen items are way too rare, not sure if it's intended or not...

Anyway, just pointing out that recovery doesn't serve any purpose ... :tinfoil:
 
If you've never played a class that can feign, I don't think you'd ever truly see the worth of recovery items. There have been multiple times where my group has wiped, but my friends monk feigns, only to have his recovery kick him to full life while we run back, which allows him to run to safety.
 
I always thought of recovery as doing for HP what FT does for mana. I'd like to know why recovery is not as good.
 
mdrsum44 said:
If you've never played a class that can feign, I don't think you'd ever truly see the worth of recovery items. There have been multiple times where my group has wiped, but my friends monk feigns, only to have his recovery kick him to full life while we run back, which allows him to run to safety.
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That's neat, but when you really think about it, how much does that actually help you in the game? Is the only purpose of recovery to save the cost of exp debt on feigning classes?
 
robopirateninja said:
That's neat, but when you really think about it, how much does that actually help you in the game? Is the only purpose of recovery to save the cost of exp debt on feigning classes?
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Besides that the only thing i can really think of is using recovery as a buffer while leveling a class that can't heal itself, in addition to bandages.
 
To the topic at hand:
+1 to seeking some form of stamina regen on recovery.

Acumen: 5 stamina Regen.
Rejuvination: 20 stamina Regen.
Ancient Druid Regen: 35 stamina Regen
Adding at most +20 via recovery (seriously, who has 20+ recovery?) adds a very similar ratio as people with max FT vs. max increase from spell effects.


As to how super cool recovery is vs. FT:
Wesell said:
I always thought of recovery as doing for HP what FT does for mana. I'd like to know why recovery is not as good.
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FT perpetually turns mana to damage or heals all the time.

In a random grind, FT owns recovery so hard it isn't even funny.
A cleric with one FT regens an extra Relic:LoE (395 mana for a 2700 base (5200+ after effects) heal.
So 1 recovery would let someone regen a whopping 395hp, or a cleric could hit you for 5200 (10,400 after a crit).
You'd need something like recovery 13 or 14 to balance out that one FT.

While recovery may be a neat idea, the above poster who mentioned recovery never matters unless you're that FD monk is entirely correct.
Even in that situation, you may as well mend then run =p
 
Alton said:
To the topic at hand:
+1 to seeking some form of stamina regen on recovery.
As to how super cool recovery is vs. FT:
FT perpetually turns mana to damage or heals all the time.

In a random grind, FT owns recovery so hard it isn't even funny.
A cleric with one FT regens an extra Relic:LoE (395 mana for a 2700 base (5200+ after effects) heal.
So 1 recovery would let someone regen a whopping 395hp, or a cleric could hit you for 5200 (10,400 after a crit).
You'd need something like recovery 13 or 14 to balance out that one FT.

While recovery may be a neat idea, the above poster who mentioned recovery never matters unless you're that FD monk is entirely correct.
Even in that situation, you may as well mend then run =p
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Yeah, but unless you are healing to 100% the 395HP have about the same effect they would have if they were in the form of regular HP on an item. Your argument makes sense, but you could take the same argument a step further and say the 395mana is worth much more than 395hp (I'm not saying this is not the case).

How about an answer to this question: How many HP on an item is 1 point of regeneration worth?
 
Wesell said:
How about an answer to this question: How many HP on an item is 1 point of regeneration worth?
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I would assume you go [(recovery #)*(duration of fight in seconds)]/6 just like with flowing thought.
 
robopirateninja said:
I would assume you go [(recovery #)*(duration of fight in seconds)]/6 just like with flowing thought.
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Yeah, so in a 4 minute fight 1 point of recovery is about as good as 40 HP on an item. Underpowered? You decide.
 
That comparison only works if the wearer of the Recovery-bearing item at no point in the fight receives a heal that would potentially put him over his HP cap.

Any time he or she is healed to full and the heal would otherwise have healed X points more if their max HP were higher*, then that 40 max HP bonus would be giving them effectively (X+40) more HP to use.

Thus, 40 HP on an item effectively provides significantly more expendable HP to someone being healed in a 4-minute fight than Recovery 1 would on that same person.

I should reiterate that if the wearer of the Recovery-bearing item is not healed to full once in the duration of the fight, Wesell's comparison holds accurate.



* In this case, X is necessarily bounded above by 40, and X may represent more than one instance of a variable. Thus, the effective improvement of expendable HP in the course of the fight created by the 40 point increase of HP would be 40 plus the sum of all such values of X, each of which would be an integer from 1 to 40. Even if this occurred only once per minute during the fight, the 40 point max HP increase would result in somewhere from 44 to 200 more expendable HP, and the low end of that range would only be possible if the "over-heals" were only barely trying to heal the wearer to above their max HP.
 
I do not think that recovery is useless, it just is not as efficient as flowing thought for casters. It does indeed help out a bit over a longer fight with AEs where you are constantly down hitpoints. However, I would LOVE to see more stamina regen items out there (just a couple with acumen that I know of). Just make it cap out at 10 stamina regen or something relatively small. On long fights, it will help melee stay in stances longer and would be a very beneficial worn effect.
 
robopirateninja said:
I would assume you go [(recovery #)*(duration of fight in seconds)]/6 just like with flowing thought.
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[img-morbo]

Recovery does not work that way!

Unlike a caster's mana, a tank's hp is constantly going up and down during the course of the fight. In all likelyhood, any given tank will have had a retarded number of hp flow through him during a pull; the vast, crushing majority of the hp he has at any given moment is because he's been healed. Max HP determines how many hps he can hold at once, so it's useful, and AC determines how efficient each HP is, so that's useful too. But recovery? It's nice to have, but it doesn't really do very much at all, because it provides such a teensy-tiny benifit. At any given time when your tank is in danger, he only *really* gets the benifit of one, maybe two ticks of recovery, because he's probably been healed to full recently by a crit or somesuch.
 
I do see the point of everyone who says that recovery isn't very good. It's only going to help a tank in 2 situations:

  • [#]1) When the recovery actually allows a healer to wait a little longer before healing the tank again. With an in-combat-cap of 30 it's highly doubtfull this effect is even measurable.
    [#]2) When you are in an XP grind and the fight ends with the tank at 80% HP or something amount of HP that is in the less-than-max-but-not-worth-over-healing range. If someone actually had 60 recovery there could be a big difference between the HP of two tanks going in to the next fight.
For non-tanks it has a somewhat different function it would seem. They do not go through very many HP per minute, but without any recovery it would take them an extremely long time to regen a few hundred damage per fight. This damage can eventually build up to the point were it requires some mana from a healer.

I still think that recovery is (although not great) better than "useless for most classes". I also love these effects that can be accumulated like recovery, flowing thought, and damage reduction, and think it would be really cool to see stackable stamina regen start showing up on items.
 
Still somewhat confused. I'm searching the forums but finding no singularly definitive explanation for what is or is not stackable with regard to HP and Mana regen/recovery. For someone new to SoD, I am finding this not a little complicated to learn.

Question: I have 3 Recovery items, +5, +2, and +1. When I look on Fomelo they do not show up as Focus Effects. If they are not focus effects, then do the stack for me for +8. ??

I generally understand why some bonuses would stake while others would not, and my logic in context of this thread tells me that my recovery items should stack.

If I knew how to measure this for myself, I would. But I'm not that competent with parsers and other such tools.

PS: As a Bard, I find Recovery items extremely useful.

In groups I am not the first on the list for healing, so any damage I regen myself helps the Cleric and Tank focus, and I can regen pretty fast with my recovery items and my heal/mana regen songs.

Also, while kiting, it is common to get hit for a few, if not a lot, of HP because the mobs are often close and chasing. Missed key punches or lag often mean I get hit. With Recovery I heal fast while moving out of range. There are times when on a long kiite against a tough mob where I can get knocked down well below 50% HP. Yet, by the time the kite is done I can easily be back to 90%. I am from time to time stunnedor nuked during a kite, once or twice taken down to 10% HP, then resumed kiting and killed to mob in question.

If my mana song is ticking for 12+ points, x2.4 with instrument, plus 8 for recovery. I can easily be regening for 35 HP per tick. This makes a big difference considering my limited total HP potential.
 
Rrowrr said:
Question: I have 3 Recovery items, +5, +2, and +1. When I look on Fomelo they do not show up as Focus Effects. If they are not focus effects, then do the stack for me for +8. ??
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Few posts above your show that recovery cap during a fight is 30. It is a cumulative effect up to that point.
 
Danku said:
Few posts above your show that recovery cap during a fight is 30. It is a cumulative effect up to that point.
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I guess the confusing part is not the stacking so much as what is or is not a focus effect.

Thanks you, Danku.

I wanted confirmation that I understood this correctly with regard to Recovery.
 
Recovery and flowing thought and such are worn effects, not focus effects. If you have an item that says "Focus Effect: Recovery", it's bugged and won't work :toot:

Focus effects are basically anything that applies to spells you cast, whereas worn effects are things that apply directly to you (such as hp or mana per tick boosts).
 
Dunno I am a monk recovery never did anything for me. Why? So lets say I am FD and I have 20% hp. Do I stay down for like 30 min and do nothing or do I press mend... hmm tough one. Stamina regen would rock since I always use stamina intensive styles as they pop.

The only time recovery owns is when character has real low hp. For example troll/iksar nwewbs have much easier time soloin. I remember countless times when recovery would save me from death pre level 10 or so
 
Note: Nothing gives you stamina regen in the game, and nothing ever will. The "stamina regen" line of spells actually slow down the rate at which stamina is lost rather than giving you regen.
 
Recovery is useful for shamans and necros in certain situations. That's about it. Even if you could have 200hp/tick regen, it would still be nothing compared to a heal.
 
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